Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]

I can see a problem on this discussion: a sans serif "i" should not
have, ehr, serifs...
I mean, the i on a sans serif font should NOT have horizontal lines,
and because of that it cannot be combined with the f. A sans serif
ligature between two f is Ok but it is wrong between an f and an i:
the only point to consider here is to proper align the f's top curve
with the dot. But f and i on a sans serif font must be physically
separated.
Only on serif fonts it is ok to link the f and the i (and to make the
f "grab" the dot from the i), but not on sans serif or grotesque
fonts.
Just my 2¢
Cheers
Ricardo

2011/2/26 Bernhard Dippold <bernhard@familie-dippold.at>:
> Hi Joey, Christoph, all,
>
> Christoph, I'll reply to your mail later (I don't think we're far away from
> each other), here just a short remark to Joey...
>
> Johannes Bausch schrieb:
> > Hey,
> >
> > 2011/2/25 Bernhard Dippold<bernhard@familie-dippold.at>
> >
> > > sorry, but I might misinterpret your mail, because I don't remember whom
> > > you are citing (and you don't mention the author):
> > Sorry for that. For me the whole discussion is a single thread in gmail.
> > I'll remember to add the names in the future when necessary. I was quoting
> > Martin.
>
> Thanks.
>
> At home my mail client shows the mails threaded, so it is not a problem to
> go back to the mail you cite. At work the webmail sorts all the mails by
> date - nearly no chance to find the original posting...
> > I have done two alternative ligatures, maybe they are better suited for
> > the
> > font, since they're not so obtrusive. You can see them here:
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey#Alternative_Ligatures
> I like them more, as they keep the general impression of a sans font.
>
> I might be wrong, but to my understanding ligatures are typographic elements
> to improve readability and visual balance of words - similar to kerning.
>
> They are needed in cases, where the visually balanced distance between
> characters would lead to a too narrow space between parts of the characters.
>
> Based on this thoughts, the distance between the cross line in "f" and the
> "i" is too narrow, when the distance has to be reduced for a visual balance.
> Therefore the cross is extended to the "i".
>
> For the dot it's similar: At the adjusted character position the distance to
> the "f" bow is too small and the direction of the bow aims towards an
> eccentric position inside the dot. This looks imbalanced.
>
> Among your proposals I prefer Alternative 2 because the "f" should have the
> same height in my understanding.
>
> But I don't know why you raised the position of the dot. The logo doesn't
> contain another "i" in the regular area (the bold "i" in "Libre" is too
> different to be taken as reference). In comparison to such an "i" it would
> be necessary to extend the space between the bar and the dot a bit, because
> the "f" bow adds visual weight to the upper part of the "i". As we don't
> have a second regular "i" we don't need to move the dot in any direction.
>
> As you showed in your proposals the visual impression is improved, when the
> "f" bow is oriented towards the middle of the "i" dot.
>
> I think the same applies to the first "f": It's bow should be related to the
> following "f".
>
> I made a quick sketch to show you what I mean:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Logo_ligature.png
>
> Keeping the position of the "i" dot, but adjusted the "f" bows to harmonize
> with the inclusion of the "i" in the visual element.
>
> I don't like it, because the first "f" bow should aim towards a slightly
> higher position on the second "f" and the bows are not constant in their
> bending. But I hope you'll understand what I mean.
>
> After the optimization the logo should differ so little, that people will
> not see the difference, but realize that it looks better.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
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