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Hi Bernhard, hello Johannes, all!

Although I decided to "avoid" my computer today, this thread (initially
read on my mobile) is just too interesting :-)

Am Freitag, den 25.02.2011, 22:31 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
Johannes Bausch wrote:
[... Logo Changes ...]
(aside from the question if it is already too late to change it now).

Yeah... is it? I don't know.

In my eyes it depends on the visibility of the changes. 

And, to me, whether the changes are improvements ;-)

Some of the changes are great enhancements and improve the minor details
nobody had the time to look at until now - this is just great.

Other changes do affect the visual meaning of the logo and alter - in my
opinion - the intended meaning a bit too much. For example, the softened
edges of the document symbol are intentional (using sharp edges would
have made all the pixel-perfect aligning so much easier ...). To quote
from our branding guidelines:

        "Friendly: The visual design creates a smooth and joyful
        environment. For example, rounded corners and the fresh color
        palette are used."

Of course, this can be discussed, but at least here is something we do
have in place :-)

Kerning can be improved nearly without any negative effect, but the 
"ffi" ligature in your proposal changes (at least in my perception) the visual 
impression of the entire logo.

While the other characters are straight and typical for a sans serif font, the
"fi" ligature with the larger dot extending the "f" looks more like a serif font.

Looking at some sans fonts for the letter "" (U+FB01), most of them lengthen 
the cross from the "f" to the "i", but keep the dot distinct.

(The nearest example on the computer here at work is "Trebuchet MS", a sans
font with round "i" dots).

We should definitively create a ligature for the "ffi", but I think that there might be 
an even better solution than your present example.

I'm a bit hesitant here - ligatures are elements for aesthetic reasons
being used in certain cases. These elements are optional, and thus not
required from the language point-of-view.

I know that typographer use such ligatures quite differently and there
is no real recommendation when the use those (as far as I am aware
about). Some guys prefer decent use of ligatures in headings, some
people use it for body text. And I know that even those professionals
talk about whether ligatures do even disturb reading - because it
appears to many people to an unknown character.

In our case, we talk about a logo that causes different / additional

First, LibreOffice is an international project, so everybody (Chinese
guys, Arabic people, English people) should be able to understand our
logo text. Otherwise, we fail in terms of marketing and localization
aspects. The solution is to stick with the most common characters set.
(Although this is already untrue, since I've used the ff-ligature as a

Second, ligatures are something many people are not yet aware about. So
even if it might look more aesthetical to a few people, many people
might wonder what this is about. In our case, we even have a
single-block "made-up word" that already requires some attention to be
understood. Adding more complexity should - for the same reasons as
above - be avoided.

That said, this is my opinion as an usability guy who has to balance the
needs of many different people - including their cultural background.

But for me as a ligature enthusiast the use of a ligature in the logo would
create the impression that LibO is finally capable of handling ligatures of
open type fonts - but unfortunately it is not...

Well, but on purpose having a logo without ligature only because the
software itself doesn't support it (yet) seems weird to me.


Of course, but this has never been the reason to avoid ligatures in the
logo :-)


As all people take their resources off the wiki, would it be ok if I created
all the other versions (coloured, contemporary, b/w, grayscale, inverted +
different resolution pngs + eps + wmf + svg) and upload them to the wiki?

You might do so (add it to the logo proposal page), but I really would like to 
see another draft (with distinct "f" bow and "i" dot ?), so perhaps it would 
spare some time, if you did it later.

Yes, this would be cool. And I'd suggest to keep the curved edges for
the document symbol.


I fully support your approach to improve the logo by balancing the character 
distances and the general visual impression. I hope you take my comments 
as positive and constructive contribution to an important task!

Bernhard, thanks that you mention it - then its easier for me to add a
"+1". Although it might be a lame excuse, but the work level during the
last weeks/months has been a bit extreme, so some things might sound
sour, they're meant to be sweet ;-)

Ah, by the way, yesterday I created the publisher advertisement for the
foundation challenge. So sorry for being so silent, but it has been
"urgently requested" and so it was impossible to me to go through the
normal "review" on the lists. I'll add this to the wiki during the
weekend. In this advertisement, I've tried to use Nik's initial proposal
for a new motif - a topic that also should get our attention. I hope for
some more time on Sunday :-\

Good night everybody!


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