2011/5/10 Bernhard Dippold <bernhard@familie-dippold.at>
Hi Paulo, all,
Hi.
sorry for stepping in here so late, but I don't understand what
you mean - so I'd rather like to ask instead of rely on possibly
wrong assumptions...
Paulo S. Lima wrote:
2011/5/9 Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>
[...]
Paulo, is there a danger of losing the Brazilian websites due to
Brazilian
law? If that danger does exist then is it a problem that needs to be
solved
urgently?
The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not
completely
undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is
competely
over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an
NGO,
not a person or a private company).
If I understand you right, the domains have to be owned by an NGO, or
they
don't exist / are not accessible on the web.
No. Every domain registration has a time to expire. When expiring is
closing, the owner receives a message about it and, if he wants, he pays
another fare and maintain that domain for another period of time (from 1 to
3 years, i think).
If NGO ends its activities, domain will remain in tis name, until
expiration. After that, it will be available for anyone (who has an
legalized brazilian NGO) to register it.
And if they exist, Brazilian people know by their extension (.org.br),
that they
relate to an NGO dedicated to LibreOffice and TDF.
When the present NGO is undone, the website will become inactive.
No, the correct situation is: when the domain payed period expire.
I don't know if this is a real issue to the Brazilian community and their
users,
as I strongly hope that until this time the move towards the br-pt.LibO
pages
has been finished.
After all this mess, We're gonna move what we can move right away, and
place
the rest somewhere. That's not the best choice, but is the one we can do.
But this question should be left to the LibO/TDF community in Brazil, as
they
are the ones to know their users best.
That's what I'm saying since the begining, but some people pretend not to
understand and prefer coertion instead negotiation.
The idea of securing the website for later times comes to my mind, but
our
trademark policy states clearly that nobody is allowed to use such a
website
without agreement by the trademark owner, so we can hinder every evil
player
from using the site.
Ok. But I ask you again: Why are there two different treatments to
North-american community and brazilian community? And this is an issue that
affects a lot of things, including TDF claims to be a transparent and
meritocratic foundation. But I will not begin a new discussion on this
matter.
I suppose that ALTA could "kindly" offer
to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members
are
not
reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the
crude
truth.
And here I am a bit lost:
I don't know ALTA, but the way you propose to use them as NGO for the
website
sounds to me, that they don't have the trust of the Brazilian community.
Well, let me draw it for you:
Olivier and David are founder members of TDF. They were part of the
BrOffice.org NGO who were doing things that Brazilian Community don't
agree.
Those things include asking for Claudio's dismissing to TDF, disregard many
of BrOffice.org bylaws (such support our community's annual meeting, act
like a proxy between the community and TDF, filter who was able to became
Broffice.org member, and so on). That's because BrOffice.org was
disassembled: By Brazilian laws, when an Association like that loose their
goals, it can be ended up if some of their members ask for that in justice.
That's because the community disregard Olivier, David, Gustavo Pacheco,
Eliane Domingos and other people. That's not me who is telling that. This
is
well documented in the internet, in Mailing lists, blogs and in an petition
we made which has almost 1000 signatures. There are many people, great
names
of FOSS and ODF in Brazil who are eye witness of what has done.
When BrOffice.org ended up, they founded ALTA as an Association (an NGO).
And we know they've done that in order to redo there, what they were doing
in the NGO BrOffice.org. Our concern is they begin to claim to be the
representatives of TDF in Brazil, including the "official" brazilian
community representatives, just like they tried to do before.
If this is true, I think Charles and Florian misunderstood your posting.
So please assure my interpretation:
The Brazilian community *doesn't* want ALTA to be the community's NGO.
Is this right or wrong?
That's right. More precisely: if they want to make money with libreoffice,
or act as a corporation, that's not of community's business. What we don't
want is they becoming an "official" representative of TDF and Libreoffice
in
Brazil, with an "implicit authority" to give orders or coerce our
community.
We want clear rules on it. ALTA is ALTA. The community is the community.
That's all.
We are not putting those people out of the community also. They are in our
mailing lists and they are not being constrained. After all the happenings,
ocasionally someone do an unforntunate comment, but, in general, they are
well treated and, also, defended when those things happen. Olivier has a
good participation in users list, and David was helping us in translations.
What I mean is: for our community, that's not personal. They think
different
and most of people don't agree to what they thing. And it has to be
respected: the majority decision.
[...] If TDF needs an official office in Brazil then that would
probably have to be run by the Brazilian Community, funded by them
and
administered by them. There might be some chance of organising
things
a
little differently but that seems (to me) to be the most obvious way
to
save
the existing websites.
I have already posted this issue to the main Brazilian mailing list.
Community is deliberating and soon we are going to have an answer. My
feeling is that we're gonna to register another domain or to use one
already
registered for our old website
Could you explain why do you need another domain?
Because many of our contents in our old BrOffice.org website cannot be
moved
to TDF structure at once, because we don't have people enough to do that
quickly. So we have to put it somewhere else.
and increase the speed of our content
migration to TDF websites.
Wouldn't it be possible to move the content directly to the TDF domain?
Perhaps there would be a possibility to have a non-Silverstripe area on
TDF
servers until the migration is finished?
Would this help?
Yes, this could be done. We use (If I am not mistaken) Drupal. We used to
use mediawiki also, but all of our mediawiki contents were migrated to TDF
some months ago.
As I stated before, personally, I really don't
care who will own libreoffice.org.br domain name.
And here TDF is different: It is important for the community that the
trademark
will not be exploited by external people and assiciations not being part
of
the
community.
If TDF could have a local office in Brazil, with someone trusted by the
community, that would be the best choice. But, I think it's a kind
difficult...
And I think people in the community doesn't care at all.
Here it seems to be important to define "the Brazilian community".
For me it has two aspects:
1. A group of people working together in Brazil doing their best to
further
LibreOffice.
Yes. That's what we do.
2. A language based and localized part of the international LibreOffice
community, based on our Bylaws, supported by The Document Foundation
and administered by a group of people representing the different areas of
the entire community.
Again, yes.
But.... as I said before: giving the
ownership to the people who are threatening us will be a shame and an
insult.
So as I don't know who is threatening you (ALTA?), I can't understand
this
phrase.
As far as I know nobody asked for approval to use the trademark in the
libreoffice.org.br domain - and if there were such a request, I'm sure
that
the SC would not have granted it for an NGO not supported by the
Brazilian
community.
Well, I think I have answered this question above. Let me know if there are
any doubts.
So my proposal is (and if I understand you right, this is exactly what
you
are elaborating in the Brazilian community):
Find out, if you need / want an NGO for the Brazilian community.
If this NGO (either already existing or new to be founded with strict
binding
to the community) asks for aproval to use the trademark in their URL (and
even
in their name), SC will most probably approve such a request.
We are searching for an answer to this issue these days. We have no
conclusion at this moment, but I think it will depend upon how all this
mess
will end. A lot of people here has a lot of concerns about TDF, because of
this treatment you are giving us. It's possible we loose some members
because of that. If TDF demonstrates to be more "friedly" than used to be,
maybe we can revert this situation...
But, yet, my first question is not answered: Why North American
Community
can use the brand in their domain name and Brazilian Community can't?
This
is a real strage behavior.
To my understanding it's just a matter of perception:
If the Brazilian website points to the community and supports it, it will
be seen
as part of our community and thus allowed to use the trademark (on
request).
We are trying to follow strictly the trademark policies. Including in
documentation we publish, banners, contacts, etc.
In my eyes there are just a few points that support a different
perception:
a) The wiki page on localized mailing lists has been modified to point to
an
external discuss list instead of using the native LibreOffice list. This
can be
seen as trying to remove people interesting in contributions to
LibreOffice
towards a different, external area.
Thats exactly the opposite. We are trying to convince people to leave the
old mailing lists and use TDF mailing lists. It's well documented in our
mailing lists history. There are many people, mainly those who use only
regional mailing lists (Gubros), who resist to switch to TDF mailing lists.
They say they wanto to stay acting locally, and don't want to move out to
general list, not focused in their local environment.
b) The "old" website http://broffice.org shows an image of the official
LibreOffice logo, but redirects to http://www.libreoffice.org.br/instead
of
http://pt-br.libreoffice.org.
That's part of our strategy to switch from BrOffice to Libreoffice trade
mark. The passes to slightly switch without chock people were: 1 - Put an
advertise redirecting to the old website (but with the new domain). 2 -
Move
the domain to pt-br.libreoffice.org as soon as the most accessed content
were migrated to TDF. 3 - End up the old website moving the remaining
content to TDF or deleting stuff we don't need.
c) On the libreoffice.org.br website there is no visible link (at least
for
somebody not reading Portuguese) to the official community website
http://pt-br.libreoffice.org.
The first page is a of blog. The link Instale já (Install now) points to
official LibreOffice download page. In Produto (Products) there is a link
pointing to TDF website. The top news has no link, but if you open it to
see
the whole story, will find info about the transition from BrOffice to
LibreOffice and TDF.
Indeed, there's a lack of references in that website, but I repeat: that's
not because we are rebels. Thatś why we have a lot of things to do and, a
lot of things were forgoten.
d) Even on the official website you link to the
gubro-br@listas.broffice.org
mailing list and not to the TDF based lists.
I have explained this issue above.
Part of this perception might stem from the NGO vs community topic and
can't be changed by the Brazilian community directly.
But if the NGO wants not to comply with the mentioned changes (I don't
think so), their approval to use the trademark could be revoked.
What the international LibreOffice community led by TDF and the SC
should ask for in my eyes is to move the main LibreOffice discuss list
to the TDF infrastructure as soon as possible.
That were already done. But many people will be left behind because of
that.
And I have another question: Will we be allowed to use that brand in
our
magazine, once it's a real contribution to Libreoffice marketing?
It needs to be released by the community to become the official
LibreOffice
Magazine - in this case it might be possible to use the logo with TDF
subline.
If it will be released by a group of community members or external people
and focus on LibreOffice only, usage of the logo without TDF subline
comes
to my mind. But your naming of the magazine would need to avoid the
impression of being an official community/TDF magazine.
If you sell the magazine, you will need to get approval by the SC in both
cases.
Ok. We were using LibreOffice logo without the TDF reference. And our
magazine isn't sold. It's available for free and all nunbers are available
in TDF wiki.
[...]
There are a lot of unexplained things in the
relationship between TDF, Brazilian Community and Brazilian TDF
founders
and
members, and that's not good for real trust and cooperation.
I think personal understanding and opinions differ - and together with
possible
misinterpretation and bad feelings this might have led to this situation
of
negativism.
Possibly yes. But something deep inside tells me that's not the whole
story.
but I won't discuss that anymore.
[...]
One thing I have with me for a long time in my life: every action has
consequences, including inaction.
Of course you're right. But if you don't take into account the reasons
for
action
or inaction (and for SC members I know about the workload they have),
reactions and personal consequences might lead to the wrong direction...
Maybe... I have a lot of work either. And sincerely LibreOffice does not
pay
my bills, and I am spending a lot of time with it. I am going to rethink my
priorities from now on...
Best regards
Bernhard
Many thanks for allowing us to tell you our point of view. You are the
first
to do it. I expect more people begin to dialogue with us, instead of
fighting us. We don't want to fight anybody. Brazilians are friendly people
who love peace, fun and joy. This situation is very unpleasant.
Kind regards
--
<http://pt-br.libreoffice.org>
Paulo de Souza Lima
Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador
http://www.pasl.net.br
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729
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