[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

Hi Paulo, all,

sorry for stepping in here so late, but I don't understand what 
you mean - so I'd rather like to ask instead of rely on possibly 
wrong assumptions...

Paulo S. Lima wrote:
> 2011/5/9 Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>
>
> > [...]
> >
> > Paulo, is there a danger of losing the Brazilian websites due to Brazilian
> > law?  If that danger does exist then is it a problem that needs to be solved
> > urgently?
>
> The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely
> undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is competely
> over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an NGO,
> not a person or a private company). 

If I understand you right, the domains have to be owned by an NGO, or they 
don't exist / are not accessible on the web.

And if they exist, Brazilian people know by their extension (.org.br), that they 
relate to an NGO dedicated to LibreOffice and TDF.

When the present NGO is undone, the website will become inactive.

I don't know if this is a real issue to the Brazilian community and their users, 
as I strongly hope that until this time the move towards the br-pt.LibO pages 
has been finished.

But this question should be left to the LibO/TDF community in Brazil, as they 
are the ones to know their users best.

The idea of securing the website for later times comes to my mind, but our
trademark policy states clearly that nobody is allowed to use such a website
without agreement by the trademark owner, so we can hinder every evil player 
from using the site.


> I suppose that ALTA could "kindly" offer
> to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members are not
> reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the crude
> truth.

And here I am a bit lost:

I don't know ALTA, but the way you propose to use them as NGO for the website
sounds to me, that they don't have the trust of the Brazilian community.

If this is true, I think Charles and Florian misunderstood your posting.

So please assure my interpretation: 

The Brazilian community *doesn't* want ALTA to be the community's NGO. 

Is this right or wrong?
> > [...] If TDF needs an official office in Brazil then that would
> > probably have to be run by the Brazilian Community, funded by them and
> > administered by them.  There might be some chance of organising things a
> > little differently but that seems (to me) to be the most obvious way to save
> > the existing websites.
>
> I have already posted this issue to the main Brazilian mailing list.
> Community is deliberating and soon we are going to have an answer. My
> feeling is that we're gonna to register another domain or to use one already
> registered for our old website 

Could you explain why do you need another domain?

> and increase the speed of our content
> migration to TDF websites. 

Wouldn't it be possible to move the content directly to the TDF domain?

Perhaps there  would be a possibility to have a non-Silverstripe area on TDF
servers until the migration is finished?

Would this help?

> As I stated before, personally, I really don't
> care who will own libreoffice.org.br domain name.

And here TDF is different: It is important for the community that the trademark 
will not be exploited by external people and assiciations not being part of the 
community.

> And I think people in the community doesn't care at all. 

Here it seems to be important to define "the Brazilian community".

For me it has two aspects:

1. A group of people working together in Brazil doing their best to further
LibreOffice.

2. A language based and localized part of the international LibreOffice
community, based on our Bylaws, supported by The Document Foundation 
and administered by a group of people representing the different areas of
the entire community.

> But.... as I said before: giving the
> ownership to the people who are threatening us will be a shame and an
> insult.

So as I don't know who is threatening you (ALTA?), I can't understand this 
phrase.

As far as I know nobody asked for approval to use the trademark in the 
libreoffice.org.br domain - and if there were such a request, I'm sure that 
the SC would not have granted it for an NGO not supported by the Brazilian 
community. 

So my proposal is (and if I understand you right, this is exactly what you 
are elaborating in the Brazilian community):

Find out, if you need / want an NGO for the Brazilian community.

If this NGO (either already existing or new to be founded with strict binding 
to the community) asks for aproval to use the trademark in their URL (and even
in their name), SC will most probably approve such a request.
> But, yet, my first question is not answered: Why North American Community
> can use the brand in their domain name and Brazilian Community can't? This
> is a real strage behavior.

To my understanding it's just a matter of perception:

If the Brazilian website points to the community and supports it, it will be seen 
as part of our community and thus allowed to use the trademark (on request).

In my eyes there are just a few points that support a different perception:

a) The wiki page on localized mailing lists has been modified to point to an
external discuss list instead of using the native LibreOffice list. This can be
seen as trying to remove people interesting in contributions to LibreOffice
towards a different, external area.

b) The "old" website http://broffice.org shows an image of the official 
LibreOffice logo, but redirects to http://www.libreoffice.org.br/ instead of 
http://pt-br.libreoffice.org.

c) On the libreoffice.org.br website there is no visible link (at least for 
somebody not reading Portuguese) to the official community website
http://pt-br.libreoffice.org.

d) Even on the official website you link to the gubro-br@listas.broffice.org
mailing list and not to the TDF based lists.

Part of this perception might stem from the NGO vs community topic and 
can't be changed by the Brazilian community directly. 

But if the NGO wants not to comply with the mentioned changes (I don't 
think so), their approval to use the trademark could be revoked.

What the international LibreOffice community led by TDF and the SC 
should ask for in my eyes is to move the main LibreOffice discuss list
to the TDF infrastructure as soon as possible.
> And I have another question: Will we be allowed to use that brand in our
> magazine, once it's a real contribution to Libreoffice marketing?

It needs to be released by the community to become the official LibreOffice 
Magazine - in this case it might be possible to use the logo with TDF subline.

If it will be released by a group of community members or external people
and focus on LibreOffice only, usage of the logo without TDF subline comes 
to my mind. But your naming of the magazine would need to avoid the 
impression of being an official community/TDF magazine.

If you sell the magazine, you will need to get approval by the SC in both cases.
> [...]
> There are a lot of unexplained things in the
> relationship between TDF, Brazilian Community and Brazilian TDF founders and
> members, and that's not good for real trust and cooperation. 

I think personal understanding and opinions differ - and together with possible 
misinterpretation and bad feelings this might have led to this situation of
negativism.

> [...]
> One thing I have with me for a long time in my life: every action has
> consequences, including inaction.

Of course you're right. But if you don't take into account the reasons for action
or inaction (and for SC members I know about the workload they have), 
reactions and personal consequences might lead to the wrong direction...

Best regards

Bernhard




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