Re: [libreoffice-design] Ribbons and Background Color UX

Joed

On Wed, 2011-05-25 at 09:03 -0400, jlopez777 wrote:

> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:29 AM, planas <jslozier@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hillar
> >
> > On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 22:51 +0300, Hillar Liiv wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Some mockups:
> > > http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/msg01239.html
> > >
> > > MS Office 2008:
> > > http://img.skitch.com/20071014-b85qcwy28rw32d69qjpy8yhtyx.jpg
> > >
> > > Ans so on...
> > >
> > > And people if you are bashing ribbon then please tell us how much
> > experience
> > > you have with it (saw pictures, used it, used it one month and ...).
> > >
> > > Hillar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2011/5/24 jlopez777 <jlopez777@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > > On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Zaphod Feeblejocks <
> > zaphodfj@gmail.com
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 23 May 2011 at 9:57, Christopher Stark wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > as I mentioned earlier, the main argument against ribbons is that
> > in M$
> > > > > > Office the user has to click on ribbons/tabs all the time and never
> > > > > > knows if the required functions hide behind "Review", "Insert" or
> > > > > > "Design"...
> > > > >
> > > > > My annoyance with ribbons is:
> > > > > - In MSO 2003 / LibO, I can easily see the things I expect to be in
> > the
> > > > top
> > > > > toolbar - font information and so on.
> > > > > If I perform certain other functions (e.g. tables), another floating
> > > > > toolbar appears.
> > > > >
> > > > > - In MSO 2007/10, going into tables causes a big menu all about
> > tables to
> > > > > obscure the things I want to see on
> > > > > the menu, with a lot of options I am not one bit interested in.
> >  Also,
> > > > the
> > > > > buttons are SO inconsistent - different
> > > > > sizes, some have text and some do not, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > In fact, the Ribbon reminds me of 'modern art'.  It's a piece of junk
> > and
> > > > > if anyone else designed it,
> > > > > commentators would call it junk.  But because Microsoft say it is
> > 'good',
> > > > > lots of people who should know better
> > > > > agree with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > The MSO ribbon is crap.  While I love Open Source and LibO, I would
> > > > either
> > > > > stay on LibO 3.3 forever, or go to
> > > > > WordPerfect if LibO mimicked that horrible interface.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > All this makes working with the current solution in my opinion much
> > > > more
> > > > > efficient than with ribbons
> > > > >
> > > > > Absolutely.  If I wanted stupid ribbons cluttering the place, I would
> > be
> > > > > using MSO.  I'm not using it because the
> > > > > interface stinks.  OTOH, if someone developed an implementation of
> > > > ribbons
> > > > > that was so good, and showed
> > > > > that the idea is fine and that MS have simply done a bad job of
> > > > developing
> > > > > it, that would be another matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > In another email, Sveinn í Felli suggests an optional vertical
> > toolbar -
> > > > > possibly a far more sensible option,
> > > > > especially as so many people have wide screens nowadays.
> > > >
> > > > What would be the best way to look into this? Getting some mock ups?
> >  Even
> > > > if it becomes an "extension" of some sort not default. I would really
> > like
> > > > to explore this idea. Any help or direction would be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ZF.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Zaphod
> > > > >
> > > > > --
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> > > > > deleted
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Joed Lopez
> > > >
> > > > --
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> >
> > I have to use MS Office at work with ribbons, about 1 1/2 years. I think
> > they are attempt at making more options readily accessible to more
> > users. The problem is not all the options are accessible using the
> > default ribbon, you have to customize the top menu bar. If there is a
> > way to combine the idea behind the ribbon, eacy access for most options
> > and make other options available "on demand" we will probably have a
> > winner.
> >
> > My other specific criticism is the some of the ribbon combinations seem
> > awkward to me, they do not seem to fit together. I have noticed this in
> > Excel mostly but some in Word. I am one to try a new ideas for the
> > interface and try have specific observations than complain about it
> > because it is different.
>
> I agree, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I rather keep the
> conversation going toward exploring alternatives and getting some type of
> advancement of ideas. Thanks Jay.
>
>
>
> > --
> > Jay Lozier
> > jslozier@gmail.com
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@libreoffice.org
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> > deleted
>
>
>
> -- 
> Joed Lopez

I think we should try understand the motivation behind the ribbon. If it
is a valid issue then try to come up with our own solution.

If I remember correctly MS stated the power users probably would not
like the ribbon but most users would find it presented more options in
an accessible and easy to understand manner. The goal was to make the
non-power user more aware of the available commands and thus make them
more productive. The power users tended to customize the tool bars in
earlier versions while non-power users were often unaware that they
customize the tool bars.

If we could find a way to please both groups without alienating either
we would have a winner. I agree MS made a mistake of putting the ribbon
on the top, on the side would be better for most Westerners on the left
would probably be preferred. In other cultures that are not left to
right it could be placed on the left by checking the default language
setting.  Also, some method of customizing the ribbon with pop up menus,
custom tab, etc. would be appreciated. MS did make all the commands
accessible through the ribbon and make it more of a pain to customize
the available menus. 

Ubuntu's use of the side for the main tool bar with Unity I think is a
good idea, most people have wider screens than the paper width they
normally use. 
-- 
Jay Lozier
jslozier@gmail.com

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