Re: [libreoffice-design] Ribbons and Background Color UX

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 8:31 PM, planas <jslozier@gmail.com> wrote:

> Joed
>
> On Wed, 2011-05-25 at 09:03 -0400, jlopez777 wrote:
>
> > On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:29 AM, planas <jslozier@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hillar
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 22:51 +0300, Hillar Liiv wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Some mockups:
> > > > http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/msg01239.html
> > > >
> > > > MS Office 2008:
> > > > http://img.skitch.com/20071014-b85qcwy28rw32d69qjpy8yhtyx.jpg
> > > >
> > > > Ans so on...
> > > >
> > > > And people if you are bashing ribbon then please tell us how much
> > > experience
> > > > you have with it (saw pictures, used it, used it one month and ...).
> > > >
> > > > Hillar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2011/5/24 jlopez777 <jlopez777@gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Zaphod Feeblejocks <
> > > zaphodfj@gmail.com
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 23 May 2011 at 9:57, Christopher Stark wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > as I mentioned earlier, the main argument against ribbons is
> that
> > > in M$
> > > > > > > Office the user has to click on ribbons/tabs all the time and
> never
> > > > > > > knows if the required functions hide behind "Review", "Insert"
> or
> > > > > > > "Design"...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My annoyance with ribbons is:
> > > > > > - In MSO 2003 / LibO, I can easily see the things I expect to be
> in
> > > the
> > > > > top
> > > > > > toolbar - font information and so on.
> > > > > > If I perform certain other functions (e.g. tables), another
> floating
> > > > > > toolbar appears.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - In MSO 2007/10, going into tables causes a big menu all about
> > > tables to
> > > > > > obscure the things I want to see on
> > > > > > the menu, with a lot of options I am not one bit interested in.
> > >  Also,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > buttons are SO inconsistent - different
> > > > > > sizes, some have text and some do not, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In fact, the Ribbon reminds me of 'modern art'.  It's a piece of
> junk
> > > and
> > > > > > if anyone else designed it,
> > > > > > commentators would call it junk.  But because Microsoft say it is
> > > 'good',
> > > > > > lots of people who should know better
> > > > > > agree with them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The MSO ribbon is crap.  While I love Open Source and LibO, I
> would
> > > > > either
> > > > > > stay on LibO 3.3 forever, or go to
> > > > > > WordPerfect if LibO mimicked that horrible interface.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > All this makes working with the current solution in my opinion
> much
> > > > > more
> > > > > > efficient than with ribbons
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Absolutely.  If I wanted stupid ribbons cluttering the place, I
> would
> > > be
> > > > > > using MSO.  I'm not using it because the
> > > > > > interface stinks.  OTOH, if someone developed an implementation
> of
> > > > > ribbons
> > > > > > that was so good, and showed
> > > > > > that the idea is fine and that MS have simply done a bad job of
> > > > > developing
> > > > > > it, that would be another matter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In another email, Sveinn í Felli suggests an optional vertical
> > > toolbar -
> > > > > > possibly a far more sensible option,
> > > > > > especially as so many people have wide screens nowadays.
> > > > >
> > > > > What would be the best way to look into this? Getting some mock
> ups?
> > >  Even
> > > > > if it becomes an "extension" of some sort not default. I would
> really
> > > like
> > > > > to explore this idea. Any help or direction would be appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > ZF.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Zaphod
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@libreoffice.org
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> cannot
> > > be
> > > > > > deleted
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Joed Lopez
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@libreoffice.org
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> be
> > > > > deleted
> > >
> > > I have to use MS Office at work with ribbons, about 1 1/2 years. I
> think
> > > they are attempt at making more options readily accessible to more
> > > users. The problem is not all the options are accessible using the
> > > default ribbon, you have to customize the top menu bar. If there is a
> > > way to combine the idea behind the ribbon, eacy access for most options
> > > and make other options available "on demand" we will probably have a
> > > winner.
> > >
> > > My other specific criticism is the some of the ribbon combinations seem
> > > awkward to me, they do not seem to fit together. I have noticed this in
> > > Excel mostly but some in Word. I am one to try a new ideas for the
> > > interface and try have specific observations than complain about it
> > > because it is different.
> >
> > I agree, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I rather keep the
> > conversation going toward exploring alternatives and getting some type of
> > advancement of ideas. Thanks Jay.
> >
> >
> >
> > > --
> > > Jay Lozier
> > > jslozier@gmail.com
> > >
> > > --
> > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@libreoffice.org
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> > > deleted
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Joed Lopez
>
> I think we should try understand the motivation behind the ribbon. If it
> is a valid issue then try to come up with our own solution.

To bring that point further, what is the motivation of libreoffice? I keep
on going to this because if the goal of it was an alternative to power users
then I would spend my time on another issue probably. If the goal was for
everyday users, then I think we would consider an alternative GUI (that ATL
LEAST gave options between a traditional layout to a ribbon or vertical
ribbon-ish layout.

I hate to get on a rant but I agree that we need to come up with a
SOLUTION...there is ALWAYS a reason why something is better done a certain
way than the other and vice versa..seriously, we can even find good reasons
to stop doing GOOD THINGS, just as much as BAD reasons to continue doing BAD
or ILLOGICAL things and never change....this ISN'T where the conversation
should STAY....in the realm of opinion or even certain FACTS about small or
trivial things...we need to somehow bring it back to the BIG PICTURE and use
the big picture as the compass.


> If I remember correctly MS stated the power users probably would not
> like the ribbon but most users would find it presented more options in
> an accessible and easy to understand manner. The goal was to make the
> non-power user more aware of the available commands and thus make them
> more productive. The power users tended to customize the tool bars in
> earlier versions while non-power users were often unaware that they
> customize the tool bars.
>
> If we could find a way to please both groups without alienating either
> we would have a winner.


At this point, how kick ass would it be if LibrO offered options for both!
You go to edit, click on something like UI Layout and switch to your
preference? I believe it would be radical and give LibrO a sense of
distinctiveness beyond what it has already. Think about what that
communicates? "We can't please everyone, but we care enough to try"

If we REALLY are serious about progressing this issue, it is my personal
belief that we need DATA from various spectrum of users and see what they
want  Then go from there.

OR

We just do both (ribbons and traditional with option to switch) and just GO
FOR IT.  I personally like the idea of having both options availiable for
the end user. I think it would make for a very nice feature and unique
compared to what other office productivity software are doing.

JL

I agree MS made a mistake of putting the ribbon
> on the top, on the side would be better for most Westerners on the leftd
> would probably be preferred. In other cultures that are not left to
> right it could be placed on the left by checking the default language
> setting.  Also, some method of customizing the ribbon with pop up menus,
> custom tab, etc. would be appreciated. MS did make all the commands
> accessible through the ribbon and make it more of a pain to customize
> the available menus.
>
> Ubuntu's use of the side for the main tool bar with Unity I think is a
> good idea, most people have wider screens than the paper width they
> normally use.
> --
> Jay Lozier
> jslozier@gmail.com
>
> --
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-- 
Joed Lopez

-- 
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