Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?

Le 07.08.2014 14:28, Tom Davies a écrit :
> Hi :)
> No-Op has been a huge help to many people on this User Mailing List
> since the very early days of TDF.  I know that user-support and
> customer service are kinda frowned on as being not much work.

I would never say that.

> However it is the first point-of-contact between weeus and is a prime
> place to build people up and recruit them for this and other teams.  I
> bet there are tons of people in various teams right now who wouldn't
> be there if it hadn't been for No-Op inspiring and pushing them into
> it.

I am a bit surprised by that but I could be wrong: Noop has had quite a 
few negative comments for years and it did not strike me that it could 
attract new volunteers or that he was helping people to become 
volunteers.

> Instead of grumbling about how little work No-Op is doing how about
> doing more work yourself to answer the unanswered questions here.
> Maybe that way you could show us how little work it takes and we would
> learn to be better.  Or maybe, just maybe you'd find out how much hard
> work it takes.


Let's do this then: what is hard to understand - I'm not saying 
everything's easy, but please describe, step by step, what is hard about 
contributing or finding information about contributing.


> The old web-page No-Op linked to was finally neat and tidy.  Almost
> elegant!  It was finally easy to see how to change anything such as
> language, OS, version.  It was even quite a good way of showing off
> quite what variety LO offers but done in way that wasn't confusing or
> hidden.  At last the buttons were proper buttons that could be pressed
> like real-world buttons.
>
> In chess games there is sometimes a dangerous moment when your
> position is so perfect that any move is going to detract from that
> perfection.  There are times when you really need to pass and miss a
> go or lose the game.  That appears to have happened to the downloads
> page.

So this download page has been around for 6 months. There was a period 
of public development and public feedback collection of 3 months before 
that. Where were you? Where was Noop? (BTW: "I was on the users list and 
not anywhere else" is not a valid argument).


> I was shocked by the downloads page today.  The layout IS appalling
> and confusing.  It's difficult to find how to get anything other than
> the default download.  Then set choices kept getting forgotten.
> Tick-boxes used inappropriately and didn't work.
>
> Change just for the sake of change is not always positive.

True. Criticizing something for 4 years does not make it right either...

Best,

Charles.


> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>  On 7 August 2014 09:09, Charles-H. Schulz
> <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> > Le 07.08.2014 09:55, NoOp a écrit :
> >
> > On 08/06/2014 10:01 AM, Florian Reisinger wrote:
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be
> > resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the
> > quality of the next stable will be lower.... Does this help?
> >
> > No. Basically what you and Sophie are saying is that 'we fully
> > expect
> > new/any user to download and use the "Fresh" branch by default so
> > that
> > LO (dev?) can find an resolve bugs in the 'new & improved & added
> > feature' version'. That's just crazy talk.
>
>  No, that is how Free Software works. If you think it is crazy, then
> Ubuntu, Firefox, the Linux kernel, Debian, Fedora, Mint, VLC... every
> other project has that crazy way.
>
> > I am somewhat astounded as I hear Charles complaining about funding
> > (rightly so, that's his job),
>
>  huh? What is my job, according to you?
>
> > users complaining about lack of bug fixes
> > w/dev's LO countering with 'we only have a certain amount of
> > resources &
> > have to prioritise' etc., etc. So why even have two branches to
> > begin with?
>
>  Because branches do not cost more money than 10 or 1.
>
> > The Fresh/Still nonsense is just that - nonsense. Here is a link to
> > the
> > internet archive from LO Download in 2013 Dec 31:
> <https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.libreoffice.org/download
> > [1]>
> >
> > On that page there is no "Fresh", "Stable", "Still" et al; there is
> > only
> > download defaulting to 4.1.4. and minor link options to change to
> > 4.0 or
> > 'Pre-releases' 4.2. That download page makes complete sense. Why on
> > earth the "private marketing list" change to the current nonsense?
> >
> > @TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December
> > 2013 &
> > keep it simple.
>
>  @Noop: please stop complaining about changes. In 2010, you were
> already complaining about the same things.
>
> > IMO you should just drop the "Still" branch and concentrate your
> > dev
> > efforts on one *single* user release. The next time that I (as a
> > user)
> > hear that you've not enough resources to address a bug report I'll
> > have
> > to ask: so, how many devs are working on 'Fresh' v 'Still' v
> > 'Daily' v
> > 'Trunk' v EOL, etc? Can you not fix the bug because these folks are
> > spread so thin across the various "branches" that they can't
> > properly
> > concentrate on a baseline release fix?
> >
> > @Sophie/Florian: The admission that 'Fresh' is the default so that
> > bugs
> > will be identified earlier is, IMO, nuts (other words come to mind,
> > but
> > I'll try to keep this civilized). 'Hello World - take our RC
> > (X.Y.0) and
> > use it by default so that we can debug it' is not a good thing to
> > announce/promote here or elsewhere.
> >
> > @Charles: you keep asking for users on in this thread to suggest a
> > new
> > name ("Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome
> > to
> > contribute to our marketing team.) - no name is necessary, nor
> > should it
> > be necessary for users on this list to need to subscribe to the
> > marketing list to voice their concerns. You are TDF - instead
> > invite the
> > "private marketing list" members to participate in this thread,
> > this is
> > afterall a user & user support concern. BTW: for those that may
> > want to
> > do this anyway, just how does one gain access to this "private
> > marketing
> > list" that Sophie spoke of? How about providing a link to a
> > transcript
> > of the "private marketing list" contents so that others on this
> > "open
> > source" project can review?
>
>  Do you think TDF is a company? TDF relies on volunteers. Our users
> are our future contributors. We are not Wal Mart. You don't buy things
> from us and users are not customers. So yes, even if it sounds crazy
> to you, we do highly encourage users to join our various teams. As for
> the private marketing list, yes we do use this list mostly for
> press/announcement preparations, otherwise news and text elements
> would be disclosed before due date. How do you join this list? Good
> question. By contributing, not by complaining, and by asking. And if
> that's not your call, we have plenty of other teams for you to join :
> https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ [2]
>
>  If that's still not your call, and you just want to use
> LibreOffice... that's fine! we are happy that you do so.
>
> > Bottom line is that I (and others) disagree with the "private
> > marketing
> > list" decision to go with the existing 'Fresh/Still/whatever'
> > download
> > page(s). Please consider simply rolling back to the Dec 2013 model.
>
>  Thank you for your suggestion, but no, we won't. We have deployed a
> brand new website, asked for feedback on several completely open and
> public lists for several months. We feel good about the choices we
> have made (although we are still toying with the Still branch name)
> but no we won't come back to the December 2013, December 2010 or
> December 10 C.E. because some think the past is always better than the
> future.
>
>  Best,
>
>  Charles.
>
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> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.libreoffice.org/download
> [2] https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/
> [3] 
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> [4] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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