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Hi :)
Ahh, i understand now.  You don't mean to be insulting and don't even
notice when you do it.

Your statement, "As for customer service, we don't do customer service.",
well said.  I'm not sure who the "we" is.  It doesn't include almost anyone
on this mailing list since the whole reason for this mailing list is to
provide "customer service".  It is what most of us are here for.

Your "please describe, step by step".  Actually we deal with people here.
It's not like programming.  There are rarely logical steps.

A first response might be to point them to documentation that covers
exactly what was asked.  Ideally would summarise and simplify but would
also ask for more detail and/or background information.  So there are 3
things that would seem to be vital but actually most of the time it's none
of those that really helped.  The main thing that helped was an
acknowledgement that the question was heard by a human being.  After that
the question starts to emerge.  It's best when several people each jump in
with different types of answers or dealing with different aspect of what
the question might be.  The o.p. tends to start responding to 1 of those
people and that tends to indicate the direction that the real question is

For example a good answer to the question "My curtains are a bit charred.
How do i stop them getting like that?" might be "Grab your bag and leave
the building.  Your house is on fire".  Sometimes it takes a bit of a leap
like that.  It's seldom something that can fit neatly into step-by-step

Your ""I was on the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid
argument" IS very belittling.
When something is finally fixed and has been working well do you assume
that the people who worked so hard on it would then go and break it?

I think most of us were guilty of assuming that once a thing was fixed and
could be happily maintained with little or no effort that attention would
move onto things that were still broken to fix them too.  I can't believe
so much work has gone into breaking something that was fine.  If the
web-designers really wanted to fix something how about helping all the
international translators sort theirs out?  How about moving into UI or UX
design and lending a hand there.  It's not like there is a shortage of
interesting things to do!
Regards from
Tom :)

On 7 August 2014 14:25, Charles-H. Schulz <> wrote:

Quoting myself:

"please describe, step by step, what is hard
about contributing or finding information about contributing."

No answer to that question.

As for customer service, we don't do customer service. Volunteers provide
users support. Users support in this case is not done as a consequence of a
purchase or any sort of commercial transaction. It changes quite a lot of
things. But as I wrote before: "I would never say that"...talking about
belittling the value or complexity of users support.


Le 07.08.2014 15:17, Tom Davies a écrit :

Hi :)
That just highlights my points.

If you really want to learn about customer support then i suggest
taking a course in it.  People put years of study into it.  I'm not
sure i could explain it all in a quick email.  Perhaps you could
explain C++ in a quick email?

There is a bit more to it than you might expect.  Try helping solve
users problems on this mailing list for a while and i think you would
be surprised.

Regards from
 Tom :)

On 7 August 2014 13:54, Charles-H. Schulz
<> wrote:

 Le 07.08.2014 14:28, Tom Davies a écrit :

 Hi :)
No-Op has been a huge help to many people on this User Mailing
since the very early days of TDF. I know that user-support and
customer service are kinda frowned on as being not much work.

I would never say that.

 However it is the first point-of-contact between weeus and is a
place to build people up and recruit them for this and other
teams. I
bet there are tons of people in various teams right now who
be there if it hadn't been for No-Op inspiring and pushing them

I am a bit surprised by that but I could be wrong: Noop has had
quite a few negative comments for years and it did not strike me
that it could attract new volunteers or that he was helping people
to become volunteers.

 Instead of grumbling about how little work No-Op is doing how
doing more work yourself to answer the unanswered questions here.
Maybe that way you could show us how little work it takes and we
learn to be better. Or maybe, just maybe you'd find out how much
work it takes.

Let's do this then: what is hard to understand - I'm not saying
everything's easy, but please describe, step by step, what is hard
about contributing or finding information about contributing.

 The old web-page No-Op linked to was finally neat and tidy.
elegant! It was finally easy to see how to change anything such
language, OS, version. It was even quite a good way of showing
quite what variety LO offers but done in way that wasn't
confusing or
hidden. At last the buttons were proper buttons that could be
like real-world buttons.

In chess games there is sometimes a dangerous moment when your
position is so perfect that any move is going to detract from
perfection. There are times when you really need to pass and
miss a
go or lose the game. That appears to have happened to the

So this download page has been around for 6 months. There was a
period of public development and public feedback collection of 3
months before that. Where were you? Where was Noop? (BTW: "I was on
the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid argument).

 I was shocked by the downloads page today. The layout IS
and confusing. It's difficult to find how to get anything other
the default download. Then set choices kept getting forgotten.
Tick-boxes used inappropriately and didn't work.

Change just for the sake of change is not always positive.

True. Criticizing something for 4 years does not make it right



Regards from
Tom :)

On 7 August 2014 09:09, Charles-H. Schulz
<> wrote:

Le 07.08.2014 09:55, NoOp a écrit :

On 08/06/2014 10:01 AM, Florian Reisinger wrote:
Hi Tom,

If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be
resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the
quality of the next stable will be lower.... Does this help?

No. Basically what you and Sophie are saying is that 'we fully
new/any user to download and use the "Fresh" branch by default so
LO (dev?) can find an resolve bugs in the 'new & improved & added
feature' version'. That's just crazy talk.

No, that is how Free Software works. If you think it is crazy,
Ubuntu, Firefox, the Linux kernel, Debian, Fedora, Mint, VLC...
other project has that crazy way.

I am somewhat astounded as I hear Charles complaining about funding
(rightly so, that's his job),

huh? What is my job, according to you?

users complaining about lack of bug fixes
w/dev's LO countering with 'we only have a certain amount of
resources &
have to prioritise' etc., etc. So why even have two branches to
begin with?

Because branches do not cost more money than 10 or 1.

The Fresh/Still nonsense is just that - nonsense. Here is a link to
internet archive from LO Download in 2013 Dec 31:



On that page there is no "Fresh", "Stable", "Still" et al; there is
download defaulting to 4.1.4. and minor link options to change to
4.0 or
'Pre-releases' 4.2. That download page makes complete sense. Why on
earth the "private marketing list" change to the current nonsense?

@TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December
2013 &
keep it simple.

@Noop: please stop complaining about changes. In 2010, you were
already complaining about the same things.

IMO you should just drop the "Still" branch and concentrate your
efforts on one *single* user release. The next time that I (as a
hear that you've not enough resources to address a bug report I'll
to ask: so, how many devs are working on 'Fresh' v 'Still' v
'Daily' v
'Trunk' v EOL, etc? Can you not fix the bug because these folks are
spread so thin across the various "branches" that they can't
concentrate on a baseline release fix?

@Sophie/Florian: The admission that 'Fresh' is the default so that
will be identified earlier is, IMO, nuts (other words come to mind,
I'll try to keep this civilized). 'Hello World - take our RC
(X.Y.0) and
use it by default so that we can debug it' is not a good thing to
announce/promote here or elsewhere.

@Charles: you keep asking for users on in this thread to suggest a
name ("Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome
contribute to our marketing team.) - no name is necessary, nor
should it
be necessary for users on this list to need to subscribe to the
marketing list to voice their concerns. You are TDF - instead
invite the
"private marketing list" members to participate in this thread,
this is
afterall a user & user support concern. BTW: for those that may
want to
do this anyway, just how does one gain access to this "private
list" that Sophie spoke of? How about providing a link to a
of the "private marketing list" contents so that others on this
source" project can review?

Do you think TDF is a company? TDF relies on volunteers. Our users
are our future contributors. We are not Wal Mart. You don't buy
from us and users are not customers. So yes, even if it sounds
to you, we do highly encourage users to join our various teams. As
the private marketing list, yes we do use this list mostly for
press/announcement preparations, otherwise news and text elements
would be disclosed before due date. How do you join this list? Good
question. By contributing, not by complaining, and by asking. And
that's not your call, we have plenty of other teams for you to join
: [2] [2]

If that's still not your call, and you just want to use
LibreOffice... that's fine! we are happy that you do so.

Bottom line is that I (and others) disagree with the "private
list" decision to go with the existing 'Fresh/Still/whatever'
page(s). Please consider simply rolling back to the Dec 2013 model.

Thank you for your suggestion, but no, we won't. We have deployed
brand new website, asked for feedback on several completely open
public lists for several months. We feel good about the choices we
have made (although we are still toying with the Still branch name)
but no we won't come back to the December 2013, December 2010 or
December 10 C.E. because some think the past is always better than



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