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Hi :)
No-Op has been a huge help to many people on this User Mailing List since
the very early days of TDF.  I know that user-support and customer service
are kinda frowned on as being not much work.

However it is the first point-of-contact between weeus and is a prime place
to build people up and recruit them for this and other teams.  I bet there
are tons of people in various teams right now who wouldn't be there if it
hadn't been for No-Op inspiring and pushing them into it.

Instead of grumbling about how little work No-Op is doing how about doing
more work yourself to answer the unanswered questions here.  Maybe that way
you could show us how little work it takes and we would learn to be
better.  Or maybe, just maybe you'd find out how much hard work it takes.

The old web-page No-Op linked to was finally neat and tidy.  Almost
elegant!  It was finally easy to see how to change anything such as
language, OS, version.  It was even quite a good way of showing off quite
what variety LO offers but done in way that wasn't confusing or hidden.  At
last the buttons were proper buttons that could be pressed like real-world

In chess games there is sometimes a dangerous moment when your position is
so perfect that any move is going to detract from that perfection.  There
are times when you really need to pass and miss a go or lose the game.
That appears to have happened to the downloads page.

I was shocked by the downloads page today.  The layout IS appalling and
confusing.  It's difficult to find how to get anything other than the
default download.  Then set choices kept getting forgotten.  Tick-boxes
used inappropriately and didn't work.

Change just for the sake of change is not always positive.
Regards from
Tom :)

On 7 August 2014 09:09, Charles-H. Schulz <> wrote:

Le 07.08.2014 09:55, NoOp a écrit :

 On 08/06/2014 10:01 AM, Florian Reisinger wrote:

Hi Tom,

If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be resolved
until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the quality of the
next stable will be lower.... Does this help?

No.  Basically what you and Sophie are saying is that 'we fully expect
new/any user to download and use the "Fresh" branch by default so that
LO (dev?) can find an resolve bugs in the 'new & improved & added
feature' version'. That's just crazy talk.

No, that is how Free Software works. If you think it is crazy, then
Ubuntu, Firefox, the Linux kernel, Debian, Fedora, Mint, VLC... every other
project has that crazy way.

I am somewhat astounded as I hear Charles complaining about funding
(rightly so, that's his job),

huh? What is my job, according to you?

 users complaining about lack of bug fixes
w/dev's LO countering with 'we only have a certain amount of resources &
have to prioritise' etc., etc. So why even have two branches to begin

Because branches do not cost more money than 10 or 1.

The Fresh/Still nonsense is just that - nonsense. Here is a link to the
internet archive from LO Download in 2013 Dec 31:

On that page there is no "Fresh", "Stable", "Still" et al; there is only
download defaulting to 4.1.4. and minor link options to change to 4.0 or
'Pre-releases' 4.2. That download page makes complete sense. Why on
earth the "private marketing list" change to the current nonsense?

@TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December 2013 &
keep it simple.

@Noop: please stop complaining about changes. In 2010, you were already
complaining about the same things.

   IMO you should just drop the "Still" branch and concentrate your dev
efforts on one *single* user release.  The next time that I (as a user)
hear that you've not enough resources to address a bug report I'll have
to ask: so, how many devs are working on 'Fresh' v 'Still' v 'Daily' v
'Trunk' v EOL, etc? Can you not fix the bug because these folks are
spread so thin across the various "branches" that they can't properly
concentrate on a baseline release fix?

@Sophie/Florian: The admission that 'Fresh' is the default so that bugs
will be identified earlier is, IMO, nuts (other words come to mind, but
I'll try to keep this civilized). 'Hello World - take our RC (X.Y.0) and
use it by default so that we can debug it' is not a good thing to
announce/promote here or elsewhere.

@Charles: you keep asking for users on in this thread to suggest a new
name ("Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome to
contribute to our marketing team.) - no name is necessary, nor should it
be necessary for users on this list to need to subscribe to the
marketing list to voice their concerns. You are TDF - instead invite the
"private marketing list" members to participate in this thread, this is
afterall a user & user support concern. BTW: for those that may want to
do this anyway, just how does one gain access to this "private marketing
list" that Sophie spoke of? How about providing a link to a transcript
of the "private marketing list" contents so that others on this "open
source" project can review?

Do you think TDF is a company? TDF relies on volunteers. Our users are our
future contributors. We are not Wal Mart. You don't buy things from us and
users are not customers. So yes, even if it sounds crazy to you, we do
highly encourage users to join our various teams. As for the private
marketing list, yes we do use this list mostly for press/announcement
preparations, otherwise news and text elements would be disclosed before
due date. How do you join this list? Good question. By contributing, not by
complaining, and by asking. And if that's not your call, we have plenty of
other teams for you to join :

If that's still not your call, and you just want to use LibreOffice...
that's fine! we are happy that you do so.

Bottom line is that I (and others) disagree with the "private marketing
list" decision to go with the existing 'Fresh/Still/whatever' download
page(s). Please consider simply rolling back to the Dec 2013 model.

Thank you for your suggestion, but no, we won't. We have deployed a brand
new website, asked for feedback on several completely open and public lists
for several months. We feel good about the choices we have made (although
we are still toying with the Still branch name) but no we won't come back
to the December 2013, December 2010 or December 10 C.E. because some think
the past is always better than the future.



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