Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Add hy-RU to the Pootle translation server

Dear Seda,

We are sorry if our explanation seems messy to you.

We have been in contact with (back-then) head of Language Committee, and 
also have seen (obviously overstated in our subjective opinion) claims 
by Min.Diaspora that they are working on unified orthography.

While our subjective opinion is that they are exaggerated, we have no 
authority to claim that it's a false statement, and cannot officially 
ignore that or state otherwise.

The questionable work on unified orthography is, however, tangential to 
this discussion and has only secondary role for decision to use 
hye(soviet) for hy_RU.  If you are really interested in actual 
situation, please read on, and also feel free to contact us at +374 55 
409 809 for a more thorough explanations.

Following is our mission:

We are building a GNU/Linux based OS with full support of all Armenian 
literary (Գրական) language versions except middle-Armenian.

Namely:
1) Grabar - ISO 639-3 code "xcl",
2) Western Armenian (ISO 639-3 code "hyw")
3) and Eastern Armenian (639-3 code "hye")

And including both orthographies for Armenian Eastern variant:
3*) Eastern classic
3**) Eastern modern

Note that unfortunately ISO 639-3 does not distinguish between the 2, 
therefore we have decided to use ISO 3166 codes for differentiation, 
namely:
a) RU - definitely meaning hye(modern), because Armenian diaspora in RF 
is mainly educated with hye-modern
b) IR - definitely meaning hye(classic), because Armenian diaspora of 
Iran is mainly educated with hye-classic
c) AM - here we are in dilemma. Official laws of Armenia do not isolate 
any of the 1,2,3,3*,3** as official language of the republic. We have 
double-checked this with the State Lanugate Committee of RA in writing 
and have written response.

Here a little more technical details are due to understand why it is a 
problem and what solution has been chosen for it:

As you probably know for LOCALE setting one typically specifies 2 codes 
- a language code (typically ISO-639) and a country code (typically ISO 
3166).

So in our GNU/Linux based Operating System, one who resides in RF would 
definitely have RU in their LOCALE, and one in Iran wout definitely have 
IR. And since we care about the diasporas, we do want to support them, 
and this is tangential to the problem mentioned in (c) above.

But for somebody who lives in Armenia, we can unambiguously set proper 
locales only for hyw_AM and xcl_AM, while for hye_AM (and one could 
argue that also for hy_AM) we have lack of clarity in legislation. 
De-facto the population of Armenia would probably vote for hye_AM 
meaning armenian-eastern with modern orthography. While a small team of 
researchers, including us, would prefer it to mean armenian-eastern with 
classic orthogrpahy. Finally, as mentioned in statement that you have 
referred to, the head of Language Committee told to us that currently 
they are urged by Min-Diaspora to not give any definitive answer to 
that, but only promise to give it after coming to consensus about 
"unified armenian orthography".

Bottom line, our locale numeration goes as following:
1) xcl_RU, xcl_IR, xcl_AM - Classic Armenian
2) hyw_RU, hyw_IR, hyw_AM - Western Armenian
3) hye_IR - Eastern Armenian with Classic Orthogrpahy
4) hye_RU - Eastern Armenian with Modern (aka soviet) Orthography
5) hye_AM - our personal choice for the GNU/Linux OS we are building - 
Eastern Armenian with Classic Orthography
6) hy_AM - our choice is hye_AM, although one could go as far as arguing 
that this should be xcl_AM (e.g. Alexander Qananyan - who is advising us 
in this activity)

Hope this makes it clear and we will be glad to cooperate with you on 
any of the above mentioned topics, as well as continue this specific 
discussion related with LibreOffice. I hope it is clear from above that 
we need to have differentiation in nomenclature, to distinguish the 
Armenian Eastern Modern and Armenian Eastern Classic. If you have strong 
preference for Armenian Eastern Modern (your translations) to be named 
somehow - we can respect those preferences, unless they contradict the 
industrial standards of naming the locales. We believe that OpenOffice 
team does respect GNU/Linux (and generally POSIX) approach of using ISO 
codes for locale names, and more specifically - language code + country 
code combination.

For that purpose, let's narrow down our discussion to following:

Our team needs to put in translations of Armenain Eastern Classic, 
Armenian Eastern Modern/Soviet, and Armenian Classic. The other variants 
will come later in our roadmap. For these 3 we are using the following 
codes:

1) Armenian Classic: xcl (any country code)
2) Armenian Eastern Classic: hye_IR, hy_IR, and unless you have strong 
objections, also hy_AM and hye_AM
3) Amrenian Eastern Modern: hye_RU, hy_RU (we believe that your main 
argument is that this should also be denoted by hy_AM and hye_AM?)

Please note that due to orthographic ambiguity between 2/3 the "hy" and 
"hye" alone cannot denote a locale (PO file) unambiguously, so country 
code needs to be specified.

If you agree with this clarification of the subject of our discussion, 
then, please, let's complete it asap and come up with solution that is 
not only respecting our own desires, but legislation of Armenia and also 
future generation rights.  Specifically - we cannot claim that there is 
a legal justification for hy_AM/hye_AM = hy_RU/hye_RU (i.e. denote 
modern orthography), nor there is a legal justification for it to denote 
classic orthography (hy_IR/hye_IR).  More precisely/pedantically, ase 
mentioned in (6) above, there is no even legal justification to assume 
that hy = hye. So we have following open questions:

1) hy = hye or rather leave it ambiguous and let each Operating System 
Vendor make their own choice, and even let User decide?
2) hye_AM = classic or modern variant of Eastern orthography ?

Our preferred answers are:
1) hy = xcl
2) hye_AM = classic orthography of Eastern Armenian

But we realize that our customers will force us to use:
1) hy = hye
2) hy_AM = soviet orthography
3) they would not care about hye_AM or anything else.

We strongly believe that "politically correct" way of solving the 
situation is:
1) ask our customers to set OS LOCALE to hy_RU if they want to use 
Eastern Armenian with modern orthography
2) ask our customers to set OS LOCALE to hy_IR if they want to use 
Eastern Armenian with classic orthogrpahy
3) temporarily use hy/hye_AM for Eastern Armenian Classic until our 
MinEdu/Language Committee will come up with a clarification

From your argumentation, it seems that you would prefer to use Eastern 
Armenian Modern for (3). Can we say that this is the main argument we 
have to discuss now, or is there any other point that needs to be 
revisited as well?

Sorry for lengthy (but hopefully not messy) discussion, and thank you 
for cooperation.

Sincerely,
RealSchool
translators team


On 2019-07-12 15:13, Stamboltsyan Seda wrote:
> Samvel,
>
> Your explanation is a mess. What you have explained about hy_AM is the
> following:
>
> "For hy_AM/hye_AM the Institute of Language and Ministry of Education
> of RA have not yet made the official decision. There is an ongoing
> work on unified orthography, after completion of which, it will also
> be implemented under this code. For now we will use either IR or RU
> variant for this (subject to discussion with the min-edu)."
>
> There is NO "ongoing work on unified orthography", as you say. And
> hy_AM has been used for all these years for the Eastern Armenian (that
> is, the main language of ARMENIA) with the main orthography used in
> Armenia. You write: "For now we will use either IR or RU variant for
> this". Really? Who has decided that? Have you asked the opinion of all
> the other Armenians of Armenia who are going to use LibreOffice or any
> other application localized for Armenia?
>
> Once again: the locale name hy_RU for Armenian of ARMENIA is not
> correct, whether it is used by your organization or some others also.
> A full stop. Don't attach the name of Russia to the Armenian of
> Armenia. And there is NO separate Armenian for the Armenians of
> Russia, which means there just can't be any separate locale for
> Armenian used in Russia.
>
> Please, don't insist on the wrong decision of minority (like you)
> against the already established and correct hy_AM.
>
> S.
>
> 12.07.2019, 14:42, "ԻԴ | Սամվել Հարությունյան"
> <samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am>:
>
> > On 2019-07-12 13:08, Stamboltsyan Seda wrote: I have read that
> > dialogue, but adding or changing locales is not my
> > competence.
> >
> > So far, in all programs localized for Armenia the locale used has
> > been
> > hy_AM. If you have decided to change that to hy_RU (a horrible
> > decision due to that RU part, which indicates Russia, and we are
> > not
> > part of Russia, mind it), then what is hy_AM for?
> >
> > I don't know if it is possible to merge your and my translations.
> > I'd
> > like to first have a look at your translation.
> >
> > Best,
> > Seda
> >
> > 12.07.2019, 12:56, "ԻԴ | Սամվել Հարությունյան"
> > <samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am>:
> > On 2019-07-11 20:21, Stamboltsyan Seda wrote: Hi, Samvel
> >
> > I don't know what your translation is and whether it can be merged
> > with mine. You should've registered in Pootle and made known about
> > your work so that I might not do the work I'm doing now if we were
> > translating in the same language and in the same orthography.
> > Because
> > if you have translated in the same Armenian language and the same
> > orthography, then my translation becomes redundant and I have lost
> > an
> > enormous amount of time. My translation is in the Eastern Armenian
> > (the main language used in the Republic of Armenia) and in the main
> > (reformed) orthography used in Armenia.
> >
> > So, you are free to make any decision with the Pootle
> > administration.
> > The most important thing here is that we may have a full Armenian
> > localization of LibreOffice. If you have done it, that's great, and
> > I'll stop translating if your translation is in the same language
> > and
> > orthography.
> >
> > Best,
> > Seda
> >
> > 11.07.2019, 16:35, "samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am"
> > <samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am>:
> > There are 4 types of Armenian locales added to Loffice. We've
> > translated hy-RU, and now we are translating hy-IR(Armenian with
> > classical orthography). Please, read this
> dialog.<br><br>https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058<br><br><div
> > class="quote" style="line-height: 1.5"><br><br>-------- Original
> > Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Add hy-RU to
> > the
> > Pootle translation server<br>From: sophi
> > <sophi@libreoffice.org><br>To: ԻԴ | Սամվել
> > Հարությունյան
> <samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am>,l10n@global.libreoffice.org<br>CC:
> > <br><br><br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote"
> > style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> > solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Samvel,<br>Le 11/07/2019 à 09:15, ԻԴ
> > |
> > Սամվել Հարությունյան a écrit :<br>> Hi,<br>>
> > We've started translating Libreoffice-6.0 at march 2018 in
> > Armenian<br>> (hy-RU) and finished a few days ago. Now we try apply
> > it on libreoffice<br>> 6.2 or 6.1 but a part of UI isn't
> > translated. We haven't upload it<br>> Pootle yet. Please add hy-RU
> > language to your server. Please help us<br>> make translation of
> > latest version without doing whole work again.<br><br>Thanks for
> > your work! Armenian is already in
> > Pootle:<br>https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hy/<br>Are
> > you in contact with Seda already, he is administrator of
> > your<br>language in Pootle?<br>Cheers<br>Sophie<br><br>--
> > <br>Sophie
> > Gautier sophie.gautier@documentfoundation.org<br>GSM:
> > +33683901545<br>IRC: sophi<br>Release coordinator<br>The Document
> > Foundation<br></blockquote></div>--
> > To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org
> > Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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> > Hi, Seda.
> > We've translated in the Eastern Armenian language with the main
> > (reformed) orthography but it should be under hy-RU not hy. Please
> > read
> > this dialogue too.
> > https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058
> > But our translation is for Loffice 6.0. Can we merge .po files to
> > 6.2
> > or
> > 6.3?
> > Thanks
> > Regards, Samvel
> > --
> > Samvel Harutyunyan
>
> Dear Seda, dear Sophi,
> in that dialogue it's explained in details why we call these hy-RU and
> hy-IR. Is it possible to upload translations of LOffice 6.0 to Pootle
> as
> translation of 6.2 or 6.1 merging with yours or without? Here's our
> completed work (.po files of LOffice 6.0 in the Soviet Armenian
> language(hy-RU)).
>  --
> Samvel Harutyunyan

--
Սամվել Հարությունյան
Աշակերտ

«Իրական Դպրոց»
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