Re: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator

Hi there,

Let me chime in since I'm the one who put that setting there.

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 21:04 +0200, Christoph Noack wrote:
> Hi Mirek, all!
>
> Am Donnerstag, den 31.05.2012, 20:29 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
> > 2012/5/31 Christoph Noack <christoph@dogmatux.com>
> > > Am Mittwoch, den 30.05.2012, 16:42 +0200 schrieb Alexander Wilms:
> > > > actually, the save icon in the top toolbar should be enough, don't you
> > > > think? It's greyed out if there's nothing to save and makes the
> > > > indicator superfluous.
> > >
> > > Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior
> > > (save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been
> > > customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to
> > > press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is
> > > really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel
> > > "safe".

There is another reason for that.  Document not only store its content
but also view properties, but a change in the view properties doesn't
trigger a document modified status.  Here, view properties include
things like (in case of spreadsheet) active sheet, cursor position, zoom
level etc.

But quite often you want to store the view properties after they've
changed, and always enabling the save action allows this.  Disabling the
save action when the document content is unchanged even though the view
has changed is IMO quite unfriendly in this regard.

Also, it's IMO wrong to trigger a document modified status on view
change.

> > This is only a setting, and it's disabled by default (at least on my
> > machine).
>
> Ah, didn't know that. Thanks!
>
> Do you know why this is a setting at all? Do we alter the behavior
> dependent on the platform?

This is a setting because of the presence of those users who wish to use
the save icon as an indication of document modified status.  To me
that's a mis-use of the icon but this practice is widespread in some
circles.

It's disabled by default only because we wanted to preserve the old OOo
behavior.  But I have been asked about enabling this by default several
times in the past.

> > Out of interest, could you point me to the feedback you mentioned?
>
> Nope, sorry. It was directly targeted at the OOo UX team (maybe even
> part of their usability studies). I had some private conversations where
> they mentioned it (if I remember well enough).

I also had private conversations with folks who asked me about enabling
the save at all times.  In fact, I myself depend on this very
functionality, in order to save the precise state of the view properties
with a document.

> > > So, finally, if there is a need to further cleanup the status bar, then
> > > I'd propose to go with "(unsaved)" instead of the asterisk for the title
> > > bar. Example for unsaved changes:
> > > Strategy Document (unsaved) - LibreOffice Writer
> >
> > Fine with me, as long as it only happens if the "allow to save document
> > even when the document is not modified" setting is on.
>
> Here I don't fully understand your rationale - I'd go for consistency
> similar to the document symbol in the status bar (always there).
>
> > > Of course there are plenty of alternatives - introducing stuff like a
> > > proxy icons (similar to Mac OS X), or extending the "Save Icon" by an
> > > own indicator. Or ...
> >
> > To be honest, I feel like this is too much complication to satisfy a very
> > small fraction of the userbase, at a cost to the general userbase. Every
> > other application I know disables "Save" when the file is saved, and
> > there's not any consumer backlash there.

IMO it's dangerous to assume that only a "fraction of the user base"
needs this functionality.  Again, I myself depend on this functionality,
and I've got in touch with several other users who needed this as well.
Given that I don't go out interacting with gazillions of users (I only
interact with perhaps a dozen), this is quite significant.

Also, the majority of applications that *I* personally touch always
enable the save icon.  Obviously there are some personal variations with
experiences here.

Kohei

-- 
Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc


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