Re: [libreoffice-design] citrus

2011/9/24 Andrew Pullins <android2772@gmail.com>

> > I'm calling fizz the floatbar now[...]
>
>
> aww I liked fizz, but what ever.


:) Yeah, me too, but this is for clarity's sake.

> > BTW, the floatbar doesn't need "Visible buttons" and "Customize Fizz"
> > buttons [...] Customization of both the toolbar and the floatbar would be
> > done either through drag-and-drop from/to
> > the ellipsis menu or in "Options."
>
>
> I was unaware of your idea to be able to drag and drop. my thought with
> this
> was to have the visible buttons be like they are when you click on the down
> arrows at the end of a tool bar that we have now, that would you would be
> able to check and uncheck items that would be in the floatbar.


> as for the customize floatbar, I just though sence you are in the
> floatbars'
> ellipsis menu it would be nice to have a menu item that would direct you to
> the floatbars' customize section in options. instead of going to view
> > customize interface > floatbar > text/table/picture floatbar and then
> customizing the floatbar. with customize being in the ellipsis menu you
> could jump straight to customizing the bar.


I understand what you mean, but, really, customization of bars is not
something that the user should do often -- I really want there to be as
little need for customization as possible (and if there's need, then it
should be a one-time thing). The drag-and-drop functionality is there if a
user needs to use a command or two a bit more often than usual, but of
course it's not suited for large-scale customization.

So the reason why the "Customize" button is not there is simply because,
just like "Open" or "Print as PDF", this is not a button you should click
often during a document session. If this button was really needed, then
there would be something with the interface, since it wouldn't be smooth.


> my brother absolutly hates the curent "floatbar" like menu that LibO has
> now. his frustration is that it gets in the way and is not helpful at all.
> most of the time the curent menu is placed infrunt of what you
> are manipulating (e.g. text, tables, bullets/numbering).

Exactly -- that's been my experience too.

> you have made this
> better by making it pop up above the thing your are manipulating. I saw
> that
> M$ Office has another interesting solution that I wanted to know what you
> thought of it. in M$O there is a radius around the menu in which if you go
> out of the circle the menu diapers and when you get closer to it reapers.

I know about this, but I don't really see the advantage of it. I actually
think it's more of a distraction than a feature (I used to spend some time
just moving the cursor to and fro when trying it out).

> > I'd keep comments inline, like now, separate from the Navigator.
> Navigator
> > should present a quickly browseable list of comments.
>
>
> im trying to understand what you are talking about here.  I read in your
> blog that there wold be comments in the navigator, though may be you were
> talking about something else[1].


Actually, I think I was thinking about something exactly like you mocked up
back then, but then I changed my mind. I think comments should be inline
because they move with the document and they pertain to the content in the
document. Navigator's role was always just to provide a quick summary of all
the stuff in the document, whether it be headings or images, and it should
do the same for comments.


> my idea for the comment system would react
> much as it does not being inline. I just used the navigator to show them.
> as
> you scroll up and down your page so would the comments in the navigator.
>  this way you could collapse your comments, because some times when editing
> a document the comments get annoying.

We could simply add a collapse/show icon to the comment sidebar.

>


> I just added a previous, next, and ellpsis to my mock up[2].
>
> Nice -- adds consistency (my original plan was to have "Add page" just
> > insert a page, but that really would be inconsistent).
>
>
> that was my thought when I saw it in the mock up.
>
>
> > I tweaked it a bit -- removed the "section break" bit, since it's really
> a
> > button just for a new
> > page (page break)[...]
>
>
> while with your context idea, a section break may not make seance in this
> menu. but if you know the awesomeness of a section break, I think that this
> should stay. may be add just section break back in as a check box so
> that unchecked would be just page brake. so you would have it just be in
> the
> insert menu. I think that this should be placed back in just as a quick
> section brake. besides most people will continue pressing return as a page
> brake and may only click on the add page button if they want to add some
> new
> page style.

Alternatively, "Add page" could be moved to the left and there could be a
new "Add section" button on the right.

> > [...], and the "header/footer" bit, since that should be addable
> > just by (double?)-clicking in the general header/footer area (this bit of
> > behavior isn't in LibO yet).
>
>
> I like double clicking to create header/footer's in M$O and hope it gets
> included in future versions of LibO.  but if you agree with me in
> retearning
> section brake to this menu then a quick Header/Footer option would be
> great.


Apple's Pages use single clicking to create headers/footers. I think that if
this feature is obvious enough (and I think it will be, if we do it right),
then there'll be no need for the entry in the "Add page" pop-up.

>


> > Plus I added a "Page number" item.
>
>
> what would this do? add page multiple pages of what ever the user chooses
> as
> the page layout.

No, it changes the page number -- the equivalent of today's "Change page
number", without the hardship of having to choose a style, then check a
checkbox, and type a number. The entry box is, of course, preloaded with the
actual page number.

> > Some notes: the function toolbar shouldn't really contain a box for
> > symbols. The main toolbar is really just a single-line thing. Plus,
> symbols
> > should be inserted through the insertbar (the toolbox on the left) or
> > through Insert>Special character.
>
>
> well when you are creating a formula you would need to keep all these
> things
> together. to have them in separate would be quite annoying.  I agree that
> there should be a special character in the Insert menu. to have a separate
> insertbar for Special characters would not make since, if we where to keep
> it in the formula bar.

I don't use formulas much (well, actually, the only time I've ever tried to
use them, I got fed up because they didn't act like normal inline text, and
I never used them again), so I can't really say what's best for someone who
does use them on a regular basis, but I actually like the current optional
Elements box, for when using the insertbar is too tedious (as that's at
least two clicks for every symbol).

I'd like to keep insert commands out of the contextbar. But I might return
to the topic of replacing the Elements box if I get a good idea.

> Great -- I'm happy to have someone excited about this project.
> > I'm just wondering whether it will have any impact, whether this will
> > really
> > be worked on...
>
>
> I'm happy just to be working with you on this. I have been wanting to
> improve the UI for some time, and I did not know how to get a hold of you.
>  this better make an impact, if the UI does not change soon(as in
> yesterday)
> there is no point in doing any of this. banners, webdesign, icons all of
> the
> this stuff the design team is pointless unless people are atracced to the
> Office suite and want to use it. we have a better Office suite but it looks
> like crap right now, and people wont give it a second glance because of
> this
> even if the suite is free or not. we need to get the Dev team working in
> our
> direction, if we don't they will just keep adding feature that no one will
> know is there because its hidden in the background and fixing bugs. I like
> how you purposed mile stones in your blog. they need to get the software to
> the point where they can start on your mile stones. that way this can
> be implemented soon.


My sentiments exactly.
I hope to update a few things on my blog soon, including those milestones,
if I have the time to.

> Notes on your new UI Mock up
>
> over all I like the new Mock up. it seems to be missing some stuff that the
> old one did, and is much cleaner then it was too.


It's missing stuff, I know -- I didn't really feel like converting
everything to the new model. The search box in the menu is gone because LibO
is multiplatform and this box wouldn't work in Ubuntu or Mac OS X. It's
definitely an issue I still have to address. (As part of the compromise, the
Navigator now gets a big search box.) The menus also changed because of
this.

> I will add some of my
> stuff to this one and then upload it to my gmail docs soon.
>
> where does the app menu go. the firs layer of Citrus, it is just off to the
> side of the app and does not seem to go with any thing.

Since the mockup uses Gnome's Adwaita theme, it also features Gnome's
application menu, which is not attached to the window, but rather to the
Gnome panel.
In Windows, this menu would probably be attached to the title bar, similar
to the Firefox menu. Mac OS X already has an applications menu. And on other
platforms, this would probably be just another menu in the menubar.

> and how do you get
> to the styles menu?
(You mean the styles sidebar, right?)
View > Styles
(It doesn't have a dedicated button in the UI because you have the Styles
dropdown in the contextbar.)

links
> [1]
> http://clickortap.wordpress.com/category/mockups/citrus-ui/
> [2]
>
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B7y5FMHPsyaNNGJkZDY0ZDItOGNhNi00MzMzLThlNTUtZWU2ZmIyMmYyZmJi&hl=en_US
>
> 2011/9/24 Andrew Pullins <android2772@gmail.com>

> Mirek,
>
> why did you switch the order in the text bar. the font name, font size,
> Bold, Italic.... are now on the right of right justify, center, left
> justify, Justify (and for calc top, center, down).


> just wondering.
When doing the contextbar for Calc, it just occured to me that the order
should follow hierarchy: container first, content second.

> Andrew



> 2011/9/23 Mirek M. <mazelm@gmail.com>
>
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > 2011/9/13 Andrew Pullins <android2772@gmail.com>
> >
> > > Mirek, and anyone interested
> > >
> > > I have read your blog and found your Citrus.svg, I started looking
> > through
> > > it.  Once I figured out how things worked, I started modifying some
> > things
> > > here and there. Not knowing how best to get these modifications to you.
> > Now
> > > that I have your attention I have uploaded my version of Citrus.svg to
> > > Google docs.  I would like to hear your ideas on my changes.
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B7y5FMHPsyaNNGJkZDY0ZDItOGNhNi00MzMzLThlNTUtZWU2ZmIyMmYyZmJi&hl=en_US
> > > <https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v
> πd=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B7y5FMHPsyaNNGJkZDY0ZDItOGNhNi00MzMzLThlNTUtZWU2ZmIyMmYyZmJi&hl=en_US>
> > >
> >
> > Wow, cool. It's great to see someone playing with this -- makes me feel
> all
> > warm inside :)
> >
> > I hope you like the changes that I have made. Here is a list of some
> things
> > > I
> > > have done. My main focus was on Calc since you have not done anything
> on
> > > it.
> > > I wanted to see how it would look.
> >
> > Actually, I sort of made a quick draft of Calc a while ago, but then
> > dropped
> > it, because I really don't use Calc (except in extremely rare situations)
> > and because Calc is a bit different from the three applications that I
> have
> > mocked up (e.g. it's not presentation based, Calc files are meant to be
> > viewed in the same view as they're edited in, whereas Impress files are
> > viewed fullscreen, Writer files on paper or in PDF, ...). Nevertheless,
> > I've
> > revived it a bit, incorporated it into a new Citrus SVG file:
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_RBf0YVtxzkYWFmYjM3YmQtYmU3OC00Zjg3LWE0MzctMTljNDJmY2NlOGM3
> > > Fizz: Made one for tables.
> >
> >
> > Thanks :). I'm calling fizz the floatbar now, for less confusion (I'm
> > suffixing everything that holds commands with -bar now).
> > BTW, the floatbar doesn't need "Visible buttons" and "Customize Fizz"
> > buttons, as the ellipsis menu shows ALL the remaining commands pertaining
> > to
> > the object (it shows everything the menu does). Customization of both the
> > toolbar and the floatbar would be done either through drag-and-drop
> from/to
> > the ellipsis menu or in "Options."
> >
> > > Changed Fizz so that there is Text and Tables.
> > > Changed Ellipses to go with tables.
> > >
> > >
> > > Writer:
> > >
> > > Menus:
> > >
> > > Documents: Now have a rename and move - this will allow the user to
> > rename
> > > or move the document while still writing it so they do not need to get
> > out
> > > of the document before they may do this.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > > Navigator:
> > >
> > >  Comments: Made comments in the navigator - the comment navigator moves
> > the
> > > page to the left and hides the page beyond the margins. They will
> appear
> > > next to the page where the in-text comment lies, much like they do now.
> I
> > > do
> > > not know how to use the navigator buttons at the bottom, so I hid that.
> > I'd keep comments inline, like now, separate from the Navigator.
> Navigator
> > should present a quickly browseable list of comments.
> >
> > > Page Bottom:
> > >
> > >  Added to the add page button. Now it shows a preview like impress.
> Like
> > > impress you will be able to select the page format, but also whether
> the
> > is
> > > a page or section break, whether it will have headers/footers or not,
> and
> > > what orientation it is in.  I did not add this but selecting headers
> will
> > > change the icons to look like they have headers/footers, same goes with
> > > orientation.
> >
> > Nice -- adds consistency (my original plan was to have "Add page" just
> > insert a page, but that really would be inconsistent). I tweaked it a bit
> > --
> > removed the "section break" bit, since it's really a button just for a
> new
> > page (page break), and the "header/footer" bit, since that should be
> > addable
> > just by (double?)-clicking in the general header/footer area (this bit of
> > behavior isn't in LibO yet). Plus I added a "Page number" item.
> >
> > > Calc:
> > >
> > > and all of calc is new.  I did all the icons vary quick so they my not
> > look
> >
> > that good.
> > > Some notes: the function toolbar shouldn't really contain a box for
> > symbols. The main toolbar is really just a single-line thing. Plus,
> symbols
> > should be inserted through the insertbar (the toolbox on the left) or
> > through Insert>Special character.
> >
> > > in the mock up I added * to the begenning of what I changed of yours.
> > hope
> > > you like it.
> >
> >
> > Great -- I'm happy to have someone excited about this project.
> > I'm just wondering whether it will have any impact, whether this will
> > really
> > be worked on...
> >
> > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 3:54 PM, Andrew Pullins <android2772@gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello Mirek
> > > >
> > > > I have been wanting to talk to you for some time about your designs.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Right now, I also don't have an internet connection at home -- I
> > > > > should have it soon, but right now I have to resort to visiting the
> > > public
> > > > > library for internet.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > that sucks I have had to do that for a while too.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > He also was so kind to join our ideas collection
> > > > > > when we've collected menu alternatives within the OpenOffice.org
> > > > > > Renaissance project. Here is his proposal:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Miroslav_Mazel
> > > > > > That's a very old proposal -- I definitely wouldn't stand by it
> now.
> > > at
> > > > > the time, I was smitten with Microsoft's ribbon, and, instead of
> > looking
> > > > > at what in the ribbon is an improvement over the old way of working
> > > (like
> > > > > better
> > > >
> > > >  organization or contextuality) and what was a detriment (e.g. too
> much
> > > > > space
> > > > > taken up, having to click tabs to get to functionality that should
> be
> > > > > available up front, ...), I just flatly wanted OOo to emulate the
> > ribbon
> > > > > (knee-jerk reaction).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I was suprised by this, because I read your blog and know that you do
> > not
> > > > like the ribbon system. I still like the ribbon UI for it is so much
> > > better
> > > > than the curent LO UI. I was in the middle of designing a UI for LO
> > that
> > > I
> > > > made for a program that I was making(you can see them here
> > > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Android272).  but once I
> found
> > > > your UI consepts and got the contextualty of them, I feel in love,
> and
> > > > started changing little parts of my program to suport the citus UI.
> > > >
> > > > I have been working of a moc citrus Calc. I saw that you do not have
> > Calc
> > > > done at all and have a lot of impress done. do you just not use Calc,
> > and
> > > > are more inspired with impress.  I love what you have done.
> > > >
> > > > cheers
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > It is something I would say that we need to be working
> > > >
> > > >  > > toward.  What is going on with LibreOffice right now.  Other
> than
> > > > > bugs
> > > > > > > getting fixed, what else is going on?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It depends on the point-of-view ... currently I'd say there is no
> > > chance
> > > > > > to completely revise the UI in one-shot (for several reasons).
> > > Instead,
> > > > > > it would be good to focus on manageable improvements for Design,
> > > > > > Development, QA, ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There have been regular posts on what is wrong with details of the
> > UI
> > > -
> > > > > > it just needs somebody to take care of that (e.g. the zoom slider
> > > which
> > > > > > has been mentioned some days ago). That should help us to in a
> > > position
> > > > > > for larger changes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > Christoh
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
> > > design+help@global.libreoffice.org
> > > > > > Problems?
> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > > > > > Posting guidelines + more:
> > > > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > > > > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> > > > > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and
> cannot
> > be
> > > > > > deleted
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Cheng-Chia Tseng <
> > pswo10680@gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I admire "Citrus UI" too.
> > > > > If we never try, we will never know it fits or not.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am curious about how GNOME Shell or Unity shell gets their new
> > design
> > > > > done.
> > > > > We defenetly can learn some experience from these projects.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Mirek M. <mazelm@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Andrew, Christoph,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2011/9/6 Christoph Noack <christoph@dogmatux.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Andrew!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Am Montag, den 05.09.2011, 20:16 -0400 schrieb Andrew Pullins:
> > > > > > > > Hello all,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does any one know what has happened to the guy designing the
> > > "Citrus
> > > > > UI."
> > > > > > >  I
> > > > > > > > have been trying to get a hold of him so we can collaborate on
> > his
> > > UI
> > > > > > > > designs. I am really interested in making LibreOffice look
> good,
> > > and
> > > > > his
> > > > > > > > designs are great.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yep, there are some terrific ideas - he was (and I hope: is) with
> > us
> > > > > > > since quite some time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, I'm still here, though I don't have the time to read through
> > all
> > > > > the
> > > > > > e-mails. Right now, I also don't have an internet connection at
> home
> > > --
> > > > > I
> > > > > > should have it soon, but right now I have to resort to visiting
> the
> > > > > public
> > > > > > library for internet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > He also was so kind to join our ideas collection
> > > > > > > when we've collected menu alternatives within the OpenOffice.org
> > > > > > > Renaissance project. Here is his proposal:
> > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Miroslav_Mazel
> > > > > > > That's a very old proposal -- I definitely wouldn't stand by it
> > now.
> > > At
> > > > > the
> > > > > > time, I was smitten with Microsoft's ribbon, and, instead of
> looking
> > > at
> > > > > what
> > > > > > in the ribbon is an improvement over the old way of working (like
> > > better
> > > > > > organization or contextuality) and what was a detriment (e.g. too
> > much
> > > > > space
> > > > > > taken up, having to click tabs to get to functionality that should
> > be
> > > > > > available up front, ...), I just flatly wanted OOo to emulate the
> > > ribbon
> > > > > > (knee-jerk reaction). I was also unconcerned with ease of use and
> an
> > > > > > uninterrupted workflow, instead giving importance to
> > feature-richness
> > > > > (hence
> > > > > > the tabs, the "tattoed" scroll bar, etc.). And, looking back at
> the
> > > > > > proposal, it's a bit hard to read, no?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In summary, please disregard that proposal :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is something I would say that we need to be working
> > > > > > > > toward.  What is going on with LibreOffice right now.  Other
> than
> > > > > bugs
> > > > > > > > getting fixed, what else is going on?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It depends on the point-of-view ... currently I'd say there is no
> > > > > chance
> > > > > > > to completely revise the UI in one-shot (for several reasons).
> > > Instead,
> > > > > > > it would be good to focus on manageable improvements for Design,
> > > > > > > Development, QA, ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There have been regular posts on what is wrong with details of
> the
> > UI
> > > -
> > > > > > > it just needs somebody to take care of that (e.g. the zoom slider
> > > which
> > > > > > > has been mentioned some days ago). That should help us to in a
> > > position
> > > > > > > for larger changes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > Christoh
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
> > > design+help@global.libreoffice.org
> > > > > > > Problems?
> > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > > > > > > Posting guidelines + more:
> > > > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > > > > > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> > > > > > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and
> cannot
> > > be
> > > > > > > deleted
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> > > > > > A: http://five.sentenc.es
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
> > > design+help@global.libreoffice.org
> > > > > > Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > > > > > Posting guidelines + more:
> > > > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > > > > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> > > > > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and
> cannot
> > be
> > > > > deleted
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > by Cheng-Chia Tseng
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
> > design+help@global.libreoffice.org
> > > > > Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > > > > Posting guidelines + more:
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Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
A: http://five.sentenc.es

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Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted