Re: [libreoffice-design] [UX] organizing UX work on menus (was: Ribbons and Background color UX)

Hi Bernhard, all!

Sorry for joining a bit late - I promise to leave early as well ;-)))
But since the given questions / thoughts deal with stuff we've worked on
since quite some years, I hope to bring in helpful information. If you
like ...

Am Sonntag, den 29.05.2011, 02:53 +0200 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> jlopez777 schrieb:
> > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Phil Jackson<sapient@clear.net.nz>  wrote:
> > > We need to have some sort of structured approach.  So any suggestions are
> > > welcome - wiki or whatever.
> >
> > I think a wiki could work, I can get one up.
>
> You probably know that we have a wiki exactly for this (and other) 
> purpose(s):
>
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org
>
> There is already a whiteboard area to work on such topics:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards

Yes, although I'd like to add that rather personal drafts / idea
collections should be placed on personal Wiki pages. Since wiki allow to
collect information quickly, teams usually run into problems later on -
when separating valid information from outdated one.

For example, I put my drafts on the "Temporary Work Space":
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Temporary_Work_Space

Concerning the structure - I can offer some "best practices", but we
don't have a binding agreement on how to structure / handle specs
(although one can look at the OOo Specification Project for some good
ideas; or Ubuntu, or Fedora, or ...). 

Here is what I did when we worked on the improved printing for OOo/LibO:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Printerpullpages


Personally, I'm all for good structure ... but the best structure
doesn't help if the information isn't backed up / valid / supported.

[...]

> > > Is there some sort of tool we can use to poll members easily so we can get
> > > an accurate idea of what ideas are popular and what are not?
>
> UX doesn't mean to poll members, but to get an idea what all our user 
> use and think - while the majority of them has never been able to join a 
> discussion on a mailing list (and thus all our contributions in this 
> area are just input from one very small group inside our user base).
>
> Björn proposed some time ago to introduce a facebook group where user 
> can provide their feedback to certain topics - such an area would reach 
> even more people than just our mailing list or wiki.

No, unfortunately, we don't have such a tool yet - since day one (or
so), I'm searching for somebody who might help to set up something like
LimeSurvey, so that we might get an idea about our current user base.
And, as Bernhard mentioned, Björn proposed to set up a "social group"
that enables us to generate polls (which is better than nothing,
although you have a pre-selected test sample).

Björn also offered to test icons quickly - his company offers some neat
surveys specialized for "agile usability".

Furthermore we can use the following data sources:
      * OpenOffice.org Usage Data (some raw data available)
      * OpenOffice.org Renaissance User Surveys (analyzed data
        available)
      * OpenOffice.org Issue Votings
      * Ubuntu Brainstorm (OOo/LibO)
      * Ubuntu Papercuts Collection (OOo/LibO)

At the end, the following matters: having someone who manages the
required infrastructure, and asking the right questions to the right
people (which is a lot harder as one might think *g*).

> > at the most basic sense, we can do a google docs form and make it public and
> > link it to the wiki.
>
> There already have been discussions on adding a voting extension to the 
> wiki - don't know at the moment how far this has gone. Someone might ask 
> at the website list about this...

I don't know either - although I've used the voting extension only for
rather simple stuff, like "do these guys like the idea at all".


> > > We can make this a really democratic approach if is this is possible.
>
> Don't know what you mean by "democratic" here. Of course we need the 
> feedback of our user base. But decisions about implementation (or 
> proposals for implementation) should not be based on such data alone.
>
> Effort and work for implementation, impact on existing users, marketing 
> consequences and our mission with platform independency are just a few 
> points that have to be taken into account.
>
> Sorry, democracy can only work, if all the people involved in the 
> democratic decisions have the same information and understand it's 
> importance to the entire community and our users...

... and I've never seen a working approach for that :-\ Instead, I
propose to - at first - focus on efficiency which can be (sometimes)
explained, (usually) perceived and (partly) measured. This is what the
user base (99.5% of the people not within our community) expects - a
working office suite for "them".


> > I think we can to a certain degree. As long as we don't get stuck on syntax
> > on questions for the polling, we would be okay. Obviously, we will have to
> > take some sort of liberty of the starting point for how we frame the
> > questions.

This starting point might imply some assumptions ... which will require
to know / focus on user types and their use of LibreOffice. And this ...

Now we're back on track with regard to what the Design Team needs if we
want to ensure good decisions. Before I went to "parental leave" mode,
we've finished the list of things for the "ideal world" usability. I
that it addresses most of your questions and concerns - now its "just"
about solving these issues ;-)
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Kick-Off/WhatWeNeed

Ah, Joed, that reminds me that you've asked a few days ago to know a bit
more about the people here. We do have a Design Team page for those who
want to share some information:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team


> Of course - the only point to remember is what happened, when 
> Renaissance started their work: They had to repeat every now and then 
> that they don't copy MS ribbons - but they didn't manage to get the 
> message through, that their approach is independent and different.

Yep, I've recently tested the LibO 3.4 Beta and was very happy that some
excellent Renaissance stuff made it into LibreOffice ...

To me, the most important "lesson learned" from Renaissance is: "A major
overhaul won't work, because we have to - at first - clean up many
different parts of the UI." So my approach would be (at least at the
moment) to pick smaller items and to work on them. 

And, another "by the way", there have been a lot of different ideas for
improving "the UI". Many of them had been collected/commented/improved
in the "Design Proposals Collection, Accessing Functionality" we've run
two years ago ... Liz was so kind to summarize the initiative (now
featuring the neat Oracle design):
http://blogs.oracle.com/GullFOSS/entry/renaissance_summary_of_ui_design


> > > Otherwise does someone have a website page they can set up that design
> > > members access and register their support for specific initiatives? This
> > > would make it transparent to all.
>
> I don't understand this question at all.

Do you think of something for Design Team members - or end-users?

[...]

> > > In the present format we are not as effective as there are no formal
> > > procedures or structures in place. [...]

True, see the WhatWeNeed list.

Sooo, I hope you have a bit more information where we are, and what we
need to go ... where we (probably) want to go. Tell me if you need
further information ...

Finally, thanks Bernhard for answering all these questions!

Cheers,
Christoph


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