I have answered Jean-Baptiste on the French mailist but will try to give
you the gist of my answer here as well for others to read. Michael will
chime in as well, I am sure.
We all have to remember that some of these tools are being built into
the Drupal site in order to make it all easier for us to work as well as
to have access to other areas that we are not accustomed to. For
example, some of our membership may have never had a chance to visit
different localised sites due to the language barrier, forums, wiki
pages etc. By building in automatic translation tools, we can then use
the word "enable" in our description of our LibreOffice site. We can
then assure members/visitors that the translation tools will enable them
to visit any corner of the site without the accompanying language
barrier. Certainly, I would propose that most if not all people would
agree that the translations may, at times, not be 100% accurate, but it
will still give the members/visitors the sense/meaning of the pages
visited as well as enlighten them to the other contributing localised
members of the LibreOffice project.
A good example where such a tool would come in handy is exactly this
thread. How many more people would contribute to this particular thread
is the automatic translation tools allowed them the opportunity to
view/read these threads. OR for that matter how many more people would
participate on the Drupal Website Development Team if the translation
tools would help.
Of course, this will all be put to test when the tools and Drupal
test-site are installed. At that time, we can all share our experiences
of the translation tools and decide whether or not they could be used
before the site goes live.
BTW, a good suggestion that Jean-Sebastien had was to offer a button
whereby the member/visitor could either turn on/off the translation
tools as well as an offer to translate the page for the site.
Le 2010-11-22 12:58, Sophie Gautier a écrit :
Hi Michael, all,
On 22/11/2010 04:32, Michael Wheatland wrote:
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 2:31 AM, Sophie Gautier
You do not mean that the sites in different languages will look the same
with the same content? Language projects need to have their own
do not rely on automatic translation because it deliver very poor
For the Drupal sites used on the OOo project, we manage the
the Drupal files on Pootle, so I think we can do the same here. But
content, really each project should be able to manage it's own content.
And thanks all for your work :)
Automatic Translation will only occur on things which are considered
'instant communication' such as forums, mailing lists, and such.
Well, how will it works. We are used to have forums and mailing lists in
our own languages, with hundreds of mails/questions per day. So how will
it works between all the languages? For example between DE/FR/NL?
We are building a FAQ from these exchanges or a knowledge base, how will
The main section of the site (ie product information, support pages
etc.) will be manually translated either through pootle or directly on
If there is a page which does not have a native translation yet it
will display in english and allow the user to offer a translation
directly on the site if authorised as a translator.
But what for a page which is in French and has no equivalent in English
or is not relevant in Russian or in Sinhalese ? We do have contents
relative to a dedicated language that do not concern others? And, for my
own opinion, a fallback in English is just not acceptable.
Good question, where would the page be placed in that particular
language if there was not equivalent page in the other language? In this
case I would say that the page would only be translated by the
translation tools as there would be no area for the page to reside.
Unless it proved interesting and important to reside on a particular
localised site, then, it could be formally translated by a human hand.
As far as falling back to English, IMO, seeing as this is the agreed
international language for the site, it just makes sense to have it
fallback to international English. We should all keep in mind that there
will also be a localised English site just like all other supported
languages and that the localised English site may also have pages that
do not apply to any other languages. It should still be available
publicly if a translation of that page is offered. We profess to be
transparent, then there should be no problem with other groups reading
our pages in translated form.
To summarise we will be maintaining the integrity and quality of all
of the 'important' content while allowing cross-language communication
in real time for community discussions. I envisage that this should
break down a lot of barriers for people getting involved in the
We break the barriers by providing support and content in the language
of the user and the contributors. Several native language teams have
already strong communities of users and contributors, this works really
well for the OOo NLC and we should not break this imho. For the French
team for example, they are already working on documentation, QA and
marketing. There is a forum running for thousands of users and mailing
list are quite busy too. I don't see how all this activity will run if
you translate the content from English as a central language to the
other languages, that will be seen has a very very negative approach. Or
may be I missed something?
I think so. The translation tools are not based on English being the
predominant language. In fact, the Drupal team does not think this way
and I would personally give the Drupal Dev Team a "gentle" reminder and
nudge, that we are all a community of equals. For all we know, the best
documentation could be found on the German or Spanish or French or
Italian or ... sites. This attempt to use the translation tools is to
enable access for everyone to all parts of the site. This will give all
language groups a better view of each others organisations and will make
for a better solid community. The Drupal team sees the translation tools
more of a bonding tool rather than a fractious tool. The respect for the
different participating languages are heralded.
I've added Jean-Baptiste Faure in CC of this mail, because I'm still
travelling and he will be able to answer the questions you may have
during the two next days where I'll be disconnected.
But again this is really important that the contents for the Native
Language sites are provided in the native language of this group by this
group and reflect the needs of this group, not the one of another
language, be it English, German or Japanese. I hope you understand
my/our concerns because the approach is really different, may be at the
opposite, of your proposal. This approach has permitted to build a
strong and efficient community in OpenOffice.org and shall be continued
the same way here.
In my mind, the same approach is still there. The only difference is
that people will be able to navigate, for example, the French site and
able to enjoy the work that you have created. So, if a Chinese visitor
to the site wanted to see what the other sites had accomplished, that
visitor could browse to the French site and read in her/his native
language the pages on the French site.
At question here is more the accuracy of the translation tools and
whether we are comfortable with its accuracy rate. This will only be
evident once we start filling in the Drupal "test" localised sites with
information and we (members) evaluate its success rate. Would we be
content with a 60%-70%-80% etc. accuracy rate? I guess we will have to
see. Personally, I am also curious as to how accurate the tools will be
and whether or not they will be acceptable. We may decide to allow their
use but with a clear caveat of its accuracy rate.
There is no emergency currently, we can still take time to speak about
it if you need to. I'll be back on Wednesday, don't hesitate to ask any
further questions or explanations you may need.
The translation tools question is up for debate and discussion by all
members. I am of the opinion of let's install the tools and see. We can
always remove them if they are not acceptable to the community. This all
before the site goes live. We should at least try to make all sites
accessible to all people.
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