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Re: R: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Ideas wanted for "How we're different" part of new LibreOffice website

James Harking <james.harking -AT- gmail.com>
Tue, 28 Dec 2021 11:15:37 +0000

Hi again,

Your key identifier with iOS and Android is your email address. You mention
corporate and political world in the USA and EU, that's a very sizable
market indeed.

If you want migrations from Microsoft Office you need alternative
applications, you can't just have a void and say we no longer will use mail
and calendaring any longer

I don't think it is likely realistic to expect LibreOffice to write a mail
client from scratch, I do however think it is beneficial to form strategic
partnerships with other projects to fill the missing gap and promote them
as a strong FLOSS alternative to a proprietary solution and work together
in their mutual benefit as a 'high tide' raises all boats so to speak.

Where I think you do have a valid point is with this line.

'Signal is open source, works on all platforms already and offers all the
modern communication facilities.'

I think Signal is excellent too, I think it makes sense to have that sort
of communication tool, I'm just not sure if that makes more than the 'bread
and butter' of having an integrated mail client/PIM that something like
Evolution/Betterbird/Thunderbird offers.

And this is where the strategic partnership aspects comes into play. Maybe
some software could be bundled together or promoted on the download page,
but you need to the collaboration to come from the project governing boards
or leadership to promote the collaboration. An outreach program is sorely
needed in the Office productivity space for the FLOSS desktop/cloud.

Kind regards




On Tue, 28 Dec 2021, 10:03 Clocked Modular, <boudi@clocked.eu> wrote:

Hi All,

I've worked in multinationals and for governments in Europe and the US. I
know how email dependent they are.
But I've also worked with Taiwan and Korean business. And 20 years ago
already they were moving to mobile.
Also, outside the old stile corporate and gov bubbles, most communication
today is done without email. And in some cases even already without domain
names.

Still, email is big, I agree. But it is clearly not the future. The main
reason being that the protocol was developed in a different technological
reality (no mobile, no internet). All attempts to adapt the protocol to
modern needs fail time and time again. And there are obvious technological
reasons for it.
Consequently, governments, banks and corporate client communication is
moving to dedicated message boxes. Not using email anymore. This is because
that way they can control the privacy. Email (or RCS
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services>) then is only
used to inform about new messages in the private inbox.

The root cause is that an email address is not a unique end user ID but a
unique server user ID. The ITU phone number system however is a unique end
user ID system.
Google and Apple clearly have identified this reality, and also are moving
step by step towards mobile phone numbering rather than email addressing.
But always inside their bubble(Android or iOS), of course.
Signal is open source, works on all platforms already and offers all the
modern communication facilities.

I recommend integrating Signal into LibreOffice rather than email. We
should look at Google and Apple for what the market is doing. Not the old
dinosaurs like IBM and Microsoft are pointing the way, but they are.

Met vriendelijke groet,
With kind regards,
Boudi van Vlijmen.

*Because email is an old and insecure first generation internet protocol
we will, **in time,  stop** to use email. If you want to contact us and
are not known with us, you can use the web contact form
<https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeW6oPf3_HhJ6P_ONNCAVy7CJNSmga7WX4ln2CgAxZB6ycfzg/viewform>.
If you are known with us you can use our signal account
<https://www.signal.org/> or* RCS
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services> *to chat, or
we share an cloud environment.*
===
Omdat e-mail een oud en onveilig internetprotocol van de eerste generatie
is, zullen we op termijn stoppen met het gebruik van e-mail. Als u
contact met ons wilt opnemen en niet bij ons bekend bent, kunt u het
contactformulier
<https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeW6oPf3_HhJ6P_ONNCAVy7CJNSmga7WX4ln2CgAxZB6ycfzg/viewform>
gebruiken. Als u bij ons bekend bent, kunt u ons signal
<https://www.signal.org/>-account of RCS
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services> gebruiken om
te chatten, of we delen een uitwisseling omgeving.


Op di 28 dec. 2021 om 09:13 schreef James Harking <james.harking@gmail.com

Hi all,

I completely disagree that e-mail is a fading technology that will soon be
replaced. It is the only  universal communication method realistically for
business outside of telephone calls. We after all are now using e-mail to
communicate on this mailing list.

I work in a large multinational and e-mail is absolutely essential for me
when dealing with colleagues and customers outside my organisation.

Also mail clients often have a calendar and contacts function that are
integrated. That is why I really think this is a short coming of
LibreOffice currently.

I'm forced to use Outlook daily I appreciate all it does, after this I
next
use Excel and Teams, sometimes Word.

From this list LibreOffice only has comparable applications to two (Word
and Excel) and that in my opinion makes any migrations problematic if you
need to research a lot of solutions before you can replace this core
functionality in Microsoft Office.

Kind regards

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021, 07:39 Clocked Modular, <boudi@clocked.eu> wrote:

Following Microsoft never was a good idea.
Until the mobile phone revolution, MS applied horde-control for their
marketing.
Now the horde goes largely their own way. Only western governments stay
behind.

Email is a fading out technology and is most of the time replaced by
smartphone based solutions.
That is why we should consider integrating signal.org and be part of

the

horde rather than joining the lagging behind.
https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop
That way we hook in all the functionality of meeting, chatting, etc.
All open source, free and privacy secure.

Met vriendelijke groet,
With kind regards,
Boudi van Vlijmen.

*Because email is an old and insecure first generation internet protocol
we will, **in time,  stop** to use email. If you want to contact us and
are not known with us, you can use the web contact form
<

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeW6oPf3_HhJ6P_ONNCAVy7CJNSmga7WX4ln2CgAxZB6ycfzg/viewform

.
If you are known with us you can use our signal account
<https://www.signal.org/> or* RCS
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services> *to chat,

or

we share an cloud environment.*
===
Omdat e-mail een oud en onveilig internetprotocol van de eerste

generatie

is, zullen we op termijn stoppen met het gebruik van e-mail. Als u
contact met ons wilt opnemen en niet bij ons bekend bent, kunt u het
contactformulier
<

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeW6oPf3_HhJ6P_ONNCAVy7CJNSmga7WX4ln2CgAxZB6ycfzg/viewform


gebruiken. Als u bij ons bekend bent, kunt u ons signal
<https://www.signal.org/>-account of RCS
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services> gebruiken

om

te chatten, of we delen een uitwisseling omgeving.


Op ma 27 dec. 2021 om 22:12 schreef James Harking <

james.harking@gmail.com

Hi all,

I just responded to a question on the LibreOffice reddit thread

regarding

if LibreOffice needs a Outlook like application.

https://www.reddit.com/r/libreoffice/comments/roj4m8/who_would_love_to_see_libreoffice_include_a/


It appears that the vast majority of responders think it does, however
that's not my point. I'll paste what I wrote there. Maybe you guys have
some thoughts?

Cheers,

James

#################

The short answer is of course it should, it has for 10 years and Open
Office did before it. But needing something and having the resources

to do

that are not the same things.LibeOffice does not compete with Microsoft
Office, only Writer, Calc and arguably Impress are comparable to their
counterparts.

There is not a replacement for OneNote and Teams which are the growth
applications for Microsoft. Arguably the rest are in 'maintenance

mode' as

they are very mature by now. Office suites are moving to the cloud in

the

mid term, desktop clients are still very important but their importance
will start to wain eventually. Next cloud see this hence why they have

the

collaboration with Collabora.

What the FLOSS Office space needs is a strong and focused working group
between applications that could help to fill the void that LibreOffice

is

lacking compared to Microsoft Office such as Project Libre (Project),
Betterbird (Outlook) possibly Joplin (One Note). Goals should be agreed
for
closer integration and cross promotion be emphasised.

The sum of these individual projects will be larger than that of any
individual project going its own way. I believe that there is something
similar for the 'art' applications like GIMP, Scribus, Inkscape and

Krita

with an annual conference that takes place.

This is missing from what I can tell for the productivity space. I have
posted this previously on the LibreOffice marketing mailing list.

If you are a management consultant it is easy to choose Microsoft

because

it is all so integrated and the cost is not necessarily a hindrance in
most
cases. But choosing LibreOffice forces you to look at supporting apps

and

there appears to be little focus on providing an integrated solution

and

that's the issue.

To successfully compete with Microsoft and their huge resources cross
project collaboration is essential or else everyone will 'pull' in

their

own way and each individual project will remain as niche as it is
currently
when there is so much opportunity to really go out there and compete on
not
price but user freedom and privacy which are so topical for the space
LibreOffice et al are competing in.


On Mon, 27 Dec 2021, 18:09 Filipe Gomes Morgado, <fgmzrr@gmail.com>
wrote:

Paolo, thank you for focusing on this EU "angle", and to all the

others

for

so many and so rich interventions, IMO (y).

Portugal, as far as I know, and just to give easily observed data -
information/intel -, has been working in the area of

interoperability,

since June 21, 2011.

https://dre.pt/dre/detalhe/lei/36-2011-670285


On November 8, 2012, with ODF 1.1.

https://dre.pt/dre/detalhe/resolucao-conselho-ministros/91-2012-191863

https://files.dre.pt/1s/2012/11/21600/0646006465.pdf


On January 5, 2018, with ODF 1.2.

https://dre.pt/dre/detalhe/resolucao-conselho-ministros/2-2018-114457664

https://files.dre.pt/1s/2018/01/00400/0012100127.pdf


IMO this means that, under normal conditions, interoperability would

be

an

issue for microsoft to worry about, and discuss within itself, and

not

for

the L.O.
Because people deal with each other and with companies, and everyone

deals

with government institutions.

So, whoever, like me, wants to "fight" for the L.O., first or at the

same

time, will have to "fight" against the EU, Germany(von der leyen,

team),

your own national or local government, ...
Where some of you can say: We have been there, done that, and even

have

the

T-shirts to prove it :) .

On the other hand, some time ago, I saw the Board of Directors

election

videos, 2021, and they talked about lobbying in the EU, costs, etc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU4XDlEGL94&ab_channel=LibreOffice-TheDocumentFoundation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL1NnGvbZT8&ab_channel=LibreOffice-TheDocumentFoundation


Bearing in mind the topic, and for the "How we are different" table,

think it may or may not be relevant - in normal conditions - to

mention

something along the lines of:
- Libreoffice is in line with European law and directives blah blah

blah,

for blah blah blah, on open software and interoperability blah blah
blah, according to the European directive blah blah blah ...

Note: For private users using microsoft. Private scientific and

research

data has to deal with government institutions, like all the others,

and

they will have to solve their interoperability problems. Ask

microsoft

:) .


Filipe Gomes Morgado *is using:*


On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 at 20:29, Paolo Debortoli <

paolo_debortoli@yahoo.com>

wrote:

Hi.  there is another legal  EU issue  (inside the European Union),

which

is important.   Please understand that I can mention but not

explain

it,

because I am not an expert in this field.

Eu has made since years open data  (definition:

https://op.europa.eu/en/web/eu-vocabularies/concept/-/resource?uri=http://eurovoc.europa.eu/c_5ea6e5c4

 mandatory

for public administrations.  I think the last version is directive

UE

2019/1024.   so, imnteroperability and availability are not only
comfortable, but mandatory.

this should be also for scientific and research data.

so, I guess,  proprietary data format are not suited for this

purpose.


Paolo






On Sunday, December 26, 2021, 07:56:00 PM GMT+1, Ravi Dwivedi <
ravi@ravidwivedi.in> wrote:





On 26/12/21 6:26 pm, Italo Vignoli wrote:

MS Office documents carry 80% of all malware because they are
intentionally complex, in order to perpetuate user lock-in (the

more

complex the document, the lower the chances that third party

software

such as LibreOffice is able to interoperate). The hidden

complexity

is

strictly related to the way OOXML - MS Office pseudo-standard

format -

has been intentionally developed. So, this means that switching

from

OOXML to ODF - LibreOffice standard document format - would

reduce

security issues by a significant percentage.


This one is an interesting point. I would like to read more about

it.


Italo, can you please send some article(s) on it? or we can write

one

too.



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Re: R: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Ideas wanted for "How we're different" part of new LibreOffice website (continued)

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