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Hello Alexandro,

Le Wed, 17 Nov 2010 06:57:23 -0600,
"Alexandro Colorado" <jza@openoffice.org> a écrit :


On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 04:47:16 -0600, Charles-H. Schulz  
<charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org> wrote:


Hello Alexandro,


Hi Charles,



Le Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:54:05 -0600,
"Alexandro Colorado" <jza@openoffice.org> a écrit :


On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 15:21:04 -0600, Cor Nouws <oolst@nouenoff.nl>
wrote:


Hi Alexandro,

Alexandro Colorado wrote (14-11-10 00:32)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:21:45 -0600, Cor Nouws
<oolst@nouenoff.nl> wrote:



I think I have some thoughts on this conversation, but first ..

Alexandro Colorado wrote (13-11-10 23:55)


There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting
where we introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper
conference would be


can you pls show me the letter?


Sure althought I recomend to hear the exchange on the marketing
meeting recording. I think it was around 1hr in the recording.
http://oooes.org/carta-tdf.html
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls#11-Nov-2011


Thanks for the link.
Practical idea to have people working on Spanish LO, OOo and
OOo4kids on one list.
This will have advantages for localization. For marketing, I am
not sure how that works.


Well, that rests one technical assumption that will end up being
wrong very quickly: that LibreOffice will keep up the same codebase
and follow OOo. I think problems will arise as soon as our 3.4.


You are right, but that is neither here or there since we are doing  
testing both products. Which means that if there are differences
they would be easier to detect than if it's just being tested on one
product. For example, LibO currently is based of the experimental
branch as opposed to the unstable branch of the OOo which breaks on
the jvmaccess library and the URE, this is the cause of the problem
with the ure 3.2.1 on a system with a 3.3 which is many users found
out when they tried to run LibO on a machine with OOo.   
http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=releases&msgNo=16351


Yes, but we're not involved with the OOo development anymore.




Also, looking from LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange
that your Donate button leads to the paypal page which reads
"OpenOffice.org Español" ..


Is no difference from the TDF leading (at least a the beginning) to
ooodev.org the german group. But we will be changing it to oooES
eventually, like many other groups we are building form the
infrastructure that we had in OOo and the change is not organized
on a big Checklist that we can just modify in one process. However
the way it works is similar to many organizations that were formed
behind the native-lang originally.



No, and again you're assuming two things:
1) that we work with a similar structure as OOo does


AFAIK you work very similar, both work with donations, and both work
with paypal. Both had also "OpenOffice.org" name on their bank
account and initially on their paypal name. Cor asked "looking from
LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange that your Donate button
leads to the paypal page which reads "OpenOffice.org Español". My
response is that he is right, it is strange and is a work in progress
just like ooodev.org.



So what name would you think to take in the future?




2) that OOoES is like the German Association. It's not, first
because the German association only acts as the interim structure
for the foundation and not at all as a regional group; second
because you


So Cor original question didnt had to do with representing anybody,
but simply that the Donate button lead to a paypal page with the
title "OpenOffice.org Español" and confused users. My reference is
that it similar to what users experienced with ooodev.org at the
begining of TDF, which can also be read on this user:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg00136.html


We've been quite clear about this I think. And again, OOoES is not TDF
and does not represent it.




pretend OOoES is representative of the Spanish community of
contributors, which it isn't. Hence my note on the ES TDF wiki page:
it's all right to point to OOoES, but please point to the spanish
TDF lists and do not convey the message that you're handling the
work for us: you're not representing us in any way.


Well I think that's the reason of the open letter, which by the way,
I didn't wrote. I just sign up to it as well as other members from
the group. Also this is something that is being looking forward to at
the TDF list in spanish.
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@es.libreoffice.org/msg00004.html

As far as contribution goes, mostly has come from oooES community,  
starting with the locale for PO which was submited by Santiago Bosio
(also on the signee list).  
http://www.mail-archive.com/l10n@libreoffice.org/msg00364.html

The TDF wiki http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:ES is also
worked mainly by people on this letter. I am not sure there is a
Spanish community of contributors yet on TDF,


We did get many inquiries and questions from volunteers, and most of
them were not part of OOoES. So we set up spanish lists to that effect.


most people are just
introducing themselves on the lists. You can read the archieves. Most
of the emails are on the subject like "Presentacion" or Presentation.
At the end of the day they want to contribute, but still need more
information which is what I meant on my last email about 'know-how'.





A thing that is not clear to me, is how to deal with the
situation that there are many Spanish speaking countries, where
people must be able to find themselves encouraged and supported.
Do you have any thoughts on that? I mean, I remember quite some
situations where you asked funding to fly from Mexico to
wherever to do a presentation. How many countries are already
involved and what are their ideas?


The group is a regional group, not a country specific group. The
members are from different countries and very seldom do they repeat
countries. Yes I did flying the most as the lead of the Spanish
group. But minor flights were also funded by our budget for other
members to do inner traveling in their countries.

Some ideas worked better for us than others, we held weekly conf
calls and have been able to work together quite well. So we sync
our presentations for campaigns like FLISOL which is the latin
american installfests, syncronizing the message. There still some
countries in the region that has no contributers specially the
smaller countries and others that are very active. The idea is to
be able to 'push' the efforts to this countries.



There are some examples from the past years, mostly in the
certification project, where I found your way of communicating
not supportive for sharing and growing involvement, to say it
brief. To me that is of great concern in every situation and
especially our current one, where we start to build connections
and processes.


I also found my share of lack of communication from the processes
that were stablish by the OOo team. There was a lot of unwritten
and undocumented process due to discovery came to work out in the
end. The process was also slow and sometimes uncertain (we weren't
sure if things were done, or we still miss things to do).


So though I can see advantages for l10n and users (as Roman
clearly explained) I am not yet convinced that the proposed
situation is what we really want for a strong The Document
Foundation and LibreOffice. Therefore I write my concerns, so
that you may take the opportunity to explain or take additional
action.


Well I will suggest to take this the other way around. Starting
from scratch usually takes time to start getting to known what to
do. So most of the things still need to be invented, discovered.
Lists are usually empty and slowly growing. Bringing a group with
experience might already have a set of processes and organization
that could speed development.



You again assume things on your own:
1) that we have no experience


I don't know if by 'we' you mean the spanish community or TDF in
general. Are you part of the spanish community? If you mean
libreoffice in general, then I never said that, and you are twisting
things around. I said that the experienced people that had work
together tend to act quicker than people that is just comming around
to get to know each other.


Yes but you're still assuming here :-)




2) that we want to follow your way.
... let us choose our own way, our own processes, thank you.


My way? Sorry but you are confusing this. This is not a 1 person  
operation, certainly not a 1 person activity. I am very interested
how you single myself out when referring to the proposal, and you add
yourself to a group when addressing your position.


I never said you were alone Alexandro.


I wonder if you
are somewhat personalizing this whole thing, which worries me to a
point. The goal here is to provide users with the most help and
resource possible. Speed usually helps that cause.


I'm sorry speed isn't everything. What I tend to see is that you didn't
know which way to go after the announcement of TDF, you hesitated and
then came up with the notion that OOoES should be the hub for the
contribution of the Spanish community. Understand me Alexandro: that is
not a critic at all. It's just a perception that I have. So because of
this -actually quite daring move- I got news from many Spanish-speaking
people that they felt upset about that move, whether they wanted to
stick to OOo or go to LibO instead, but still didn't like the OOoES
solution. In the end, you didn't want to choose, and that's your right,
and I'm absolutely fine with it. TDF does not have any say with respect
to OOo or to what its contributors do with OOo; we're only interested
in your contributions. :-) But when we set up mailing list and that
your reaction is to say, well in fact we -the OOoES team- centralize
everything at our place and it's the only way to go, there I disagree.


The letter was
build to improve the organization, is not an attempt to represent
anybody or take control of anyone like you previously condemn.

Mailing lists are communication channels to improve organization on  
working sites (like wiki, translation sites, qa sites, documentation  
sites) and eventually code. Locale groups main activity is to produce
a quality locale for the product, and also peripheral localization of
other things like dictionaries, documentation and then there is the
service of support to users. improving communication will improve on
the overall performance of the previous things I mentioned.

For Cor it made sense on tasks such as localization, he asked things
like marketing which I answer that in my experience it has help us
because we have a network that help us act faster to launch an
announcement on a local newspaper or on events like I previously
mentioned.

On a side note, I wonder if this is happening with other locale
groups are dealing with this.



Well it's not. We are not against local group organizing themselves
with their own tools, in their own way. We believe in freedom. But
freedom stops where anyone else's freedom starts. So our freedom is to
have our own spanish mailing lists, wiki, etc. Please respect that: we
fully respect OOoES and welcome your contributions.

best,
Charles.



best,
Charles.



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