Re: [libreoffice-l10n] spanish contribution - LibreOffice 3.3

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 04:47:16 -0600, Charles-H. Schulz  
<charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hello Alexandro,

Hi Charles,

> Le Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:54:05 -0600,
> "Alexandro Colorado" <jza@openoffice.org> a écrit :
>
> > On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 15:21:04 -0600, Cor Nouws <oolst@nouenoff.nl>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Alexandro,
> > >
> > > Alexandro Colorado wrote (14-11-10 00:32)
> > >> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:21:45 -0600, Cor Nouws <oolst@nouenoff.nl>
> > >> wrote:
> > >
> > >>> I think I have some thoughts on this conversation, but first ..
> > >>>
> > >>> Alexandro Colorado wrote (13-11-10 23:55)
> > >>>
> > >>>> There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting
> > >>>> where we introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper
> > >>>> conference would be
> > >>>
> > >>> can you pls show me the letter?
> > >>
> > >> Sure althought I recomend to hear the exchange on the marketing
> > >> meeting recording. I think it was around 1hr in the recording.
> > >> http://oooes.org/carta-tdf.html
> > >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls#11-Nov-2011
> > >
> > > Thanks for the link.
> > > Practical idea to have people working on Spanish LO, OOo and
> > > OOo4kids on one list.
> > > This will have advantages for localization. For marketing, I am not
> > > sure how that works.
>
> Well, that rests one technical assumption that will end up being wrong
> very quickly: that LibreOffice will keep up the same codebase and
> follow OOo. I think problems will arise as soon as our 3.4.

You are right, but that is neither here or there since we are doing  
testing both products. Which means that if there are differences they  
would be easier to detect than if it's just being tested on one product.  
For example, LibO currently is based of the experimental branch as opposed  
to the unstable branch of the OOo which breaks on the jvmaccess library  
and the URE, this is the cause of the problem with the ure 3.2.1 on a  
system with a 3.3 which is many users found out when they tried to run  
LibO on a machine with OOo.   
http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=releases&msgNo=16351

> > > Also, looking from LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange
> > > that your Donate button leads to the paypal page which reads
> > > "OpenOffice.org Español" ..
> >
> > Is no difference from the TDF leading (at least a the beginning) to
> > ooodev.org the german group. But we will be changing it to oooES
> > eventually, like many other groups we are building form the
> > infrastructure that we had in OOo and the change is not organized on
> > a big Checklist that we can just modify in one process. However the
> > way it works is similar to many organizations that were formed behind
> > the native-lang originally.
>
>
> No, and again you're assuming two things:
> 1) that we work with a similar structure as OOo does

AFAIK you work very similar, both work with donations, and both work with  
paypal. Both had also "OpenOffice.org" name on their bank account and  
initially on their paypal name. Cor asked "looking from LibreOffice  
perspective, it is rather strange that your Donate button leads to the  
paypal page which reads "OpenOffice.org Español". My response is that he  
is right, it is strange and is a work in progress just like ooodev.org.

> 2) that OOoES is like the German Association. It's not, first because
> the German association only acts as the interim structure for the
> foundation and not at all as a regional group; second because you

So Cor original question didnt had to do with representing anybody, but  
simply that the Donate button lead to a paypal page with the title  
"OpenOffice.org Español" and confused users. My reference is that it  
similar to what users experienced with ooodev.org at the begining of TDF,  
which can also be read on this user:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg00136.html

> pretend OOoES is representative of the Spanish community of
> contributors, which it isn't. Hence my note on the ES TDF wiki page:
> it's all right to point to OOoES, but please point to the spanish TDF
> lists and do not convey the message that you're handling the work for
> us: you're not representing us in any way.

Well I think that's the reason of the open letter, which by the way, I  
didn't wrote. I just sign up to it as well as other members from the  
group. Also this is something that is being looking forward to at the TDF  
list in spanish.
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@es.libreoffice.org/msg00004.html

As far as contribution goes, mostly has come from oooES community,  
starting with the locale for PO which was submited by Santiago Bosio (also  
on the signee list).  
http://www.mail-archive.com/l10n@libreoffice.org/msg00364.html

The TDF wiki http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:ES is also worked  
mainly by people on this letter. I am not sure there is a Spanish  
community of contributors yet on TDF, most people are just introducing  
themselves on the lists. You can read the archieves. Most of the emails  
are on the subject like "Presentacion" or Presentation. At the end of the  
day they want to contribute, but still need more information which is what  
I meant on my last email about 'know-how'.

> > > A thing that is not clear to me, is how to deal with the situation
> > > that there are many Spanish speaking countries, where people must
> > > be able to find themselves encouraged and supported. Do you have
> > > any thoughts on that? I mean, I remember quite some situations
> > > where you asked funding to fly from Mexico to wherever to do a
> > > presentation. How many countries are already involved and what are
> > > their ideas?
> >
> > The group is a regional group, not a country specific group. The
> > members are from different countries and very seldom do they repeat
> > countries. Yes I did flying the most as the lead of the Spanish
> > group. But minor flights were also funded by our budget for other
> > members to do inner traveling in their countries.
> >
> > Some ideas worked better for us than others, we held weekly conf
> > calls and have been able to work together quite well. So we sync our
> > presentations for campaigns like FLISOL which is the latin american
> > installfests, syncronizing the message. There still some countries in
> > the region that has no contributers specially the smaller countries
> > and others that are very active. The idea is to be able to 'push' the
> > efforts to this countries.
> >
> >
> > > There are some examples from the past years, mostly in the
> > > certification project, where I found your way of communicating not
> > > supportive for sharing and growing involvement, to say it brief.
> > > To me that is of great concern in every situation and especially
> > > our current one, where we start to build connections and processes.
> >
> > I also found my share of lack of communication from the processes
> > that were stablish by the OOo team. There was a lot of unwritten and
> > undocumented process due to discovery came to work out in the end.
> > The process was also slow and sometimes uncertain (we weren't sure if
> > things were done, or we still miss things to do).
> >
> > > So though I can see advantages for l10n and users (as Roman
> > > clearly explained) I am not yet convinced that the proposed
> > > situation is what we really want for a strong The Document
> > > Foundation and LibreOffice. Therefore I write my concerns, so that
> > > you may take the opportunity to explain or take additional action.
> >
> > Well I will suggest to take this the other way around. Starting from
> > scratch usually takes time to start getting to known what to do. So
> > most of the things still need to be invented, discovered. Lists are
> > usually empty and slowly growing. Bringing a group with experience
> > might already have a set of processes and organization that could
> > speed development.
>
>
> You again assume things on your own:
> 1) that we have no experience

I don't know if by 'we' you mean the spanish community or TDF in general.  
Are you part of the spanish community? If you mean libreoffice in general,  
then I never said that, and you are twisting things around. I said that  
the experienced people that had work together tend to act quicker than  
people that is just comming around to get to know each other.

> 2) that we want to follow your way.
> ... let us choose our own way, our own processes, thank you.

My way? Sorry but you are confusing this. This is not a 1 person  
operation, certainly not a 1 person activity. I am very interested how you  
single myself out when referring to the proposal, and you add yourself to  
a group when addressing your position. I wonder if you are somewhat  
personalizing this whole thing, which worries me to a point. The goal here  
is to provide users with the most help and resource possible. Speed  
usually helps that cause. The letter was build to improve the  
organization, is not an attempt to represent anybody or take control of  
anyone like you previously condemn.

Mailing lists are communication channels to improve organization on  
working sites (like wiki, translation sites, qa sites, documentation  
sites) and eventually code. Locale groups main activity is to produce a  
quality locale for the product, and also peripheral localization of other  
things like dictionaries, documentation and then there is the service of  
support to users. improving communication will improve on the overall  
performance of the previous things I mentioned.

For Cor it made sense on tasks such as localization, he asked things like  
marketing which I answer that in my experience it has help us because we  
have a network that help us act faster to launch an announcement on a  
local newspaper or on events like I previously mentioned.

On a side note, I wonder if this is happening with other locale groups are  
dealing with this.
> best,
> Charles.
>
>
>
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--
Alexandro Colorado

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