Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781

Hi Sophie,

On 06/08/2015 12:02 PM, Sophie wrote:
> Hi Jay,
> Le 07/06/2015 19:07, Jay Philips a écrit :
> [...]
>
> > Would 'Exchange Database' be more suitable in the Tools menu next to
> > 'Bibliography Database'?
>
> Why, you're not working on the database, but editing the link to the
> database.

So editing the data in the database makes it suitable for 'Bibliography 
Database' to be under Tools but editing the link to the database 
shouldnt be considered suitable for it to be under Tools. Bibliography 
Database is the tool and all things related to that tool should be under 
Tools, similarly Macros is a tool and running, assigning, editing, etc 
of macros is located under tools. We dont have a Edit > Macros entry.

> > I'm assuming he meant Insert > Hyperlink and Edit > Hyperlink, which do
> > use the same dialog. :D
>
> So to edit an hyperlink you chose the insert menu?

To edit a hyperlink, I would use the context menu or click the Hyperlink 
entry in the toolbar, as the Hyperlink dialog box is multi-purpose.

Stats for Edit > Hyperlink (.uno:EditHyperlink) :-
Context Menu : 90%
Menu Bar : 10%
Note: There isnt any means to know how many users clicked the 
'Hyperlink' button (.uno:HyperlinkDialog) to edit a hyperlink.

> > Not very commonly used according to the stats, which likely means its
> > commonly used only by experienced/advanced users (aka Eve). The stats
> > have Insert > Image > From File as the highest used entry in the menu
> > and its submenus and Insert > Section as one of the lowest in the first
> > level. Even behind Insert > Envelope and Insert > File. (the namings
> > given here are according to LO 4.3)
>
> which is wrong, but no time to discuss that

Which part is wrong? That it is one of the least used entries in the 
insert menu, that it is less used that inserting an image, that it isnt 
used by average users.

Section isnt a common feature found in documents, as its not even a 
common feature found in word processors. I would presume that if we 
analysed all the documents on bugzilla, that sections would likely be in 
less that 1% of them. As a simple example, the Writer user guide has 
tables, frames, images, bookmarks, hyperlinks, and indexes, but no sections.

> > As HIG says we have to have all of them in the menu, we can only do so
> > much. As you said you had to scroll to display them, i checked my laptop
> > which is 1280x768 and the insert menu was the longest, but i didnt need
> > to scroll according to today's master. It can be reduce by 1 if i move
> > Insert > Chart back into Insert > Object.
>
> Insert and format are too long for my screen

What screen resolution do you have? Both the insert and format menus now 
have 25 entries in it. In 4.3, before the menus began changing, the 
insert menu had 23 entries and the format menu had 21 entries.

> > There is an absolutely good reason for them. Firstly its defined in the
> > HIG that all commands be available in the menus, but secondly you
> > previously stated "when you train people on software, the first thing
> > you tell them is to be curious and to visit the menus if they search for
> > something" and if these items are not available in the menu, how would a
> > user discover useful shortcuts like Ctrl+] for Increase Font Size.
>
> Who would encourage users to use this command instead of styles?

The use of direct formatting is not in competition with styles, as you 
can create a suitable set of direct formatting options and easily 
convert it into a paragraph style, or set a paragraph style and apply 
direct formatting to it, and then update the style based on the 
additional direct formatting.

The command is a feature of libreoffice and is no different that opening 
the font size combobox to increase or decrease the font, so there isnt a 
need to hide it from the menu bar. The menu bar didnt even have style 
shortcut entries in it until i just added them, so how would a user know 
that ctrl+1 is for the Heading 1 style.

> The
> > menu also has commands that weren't previously easily accessible until i
> > added them to the toolbar (e.g. superscript, subscript, line spacing,
> > increase/decrease paragraph spacing, etc).
>
> We want the document produced with LibreOffice to be robust with
> roundtrip to other format, so please do not encourage users to use
> direct formatting, on the contrary we should make them aware of styles
> and simplify the process to access them, this is what should be worked
> on and where we should put resources and creativity.

As stated above, direct formatting options are not in competition with 
styles as styles are simply a bundled collection of direct formatting 
and not showing direct formatting options because users may not know 
about styles or choose not to use it is not the correct way to go.

> > We can want users to not use direct formatting, though we present them
> > with direct formatting in the toolbar and also in the context menu until
> > recently, but it will always be used until styles are presented to users
> > in such an easy manner that even a beginner would understand and be
> > convinced that it is the only way. We dont even provide an easy means
> > for users to select character styles, so if a user wants to make some
> > text bold, he will click the bold button in the toolbar over opening the
> > styles and formatting dialog, switch to character styles and select
> > strong emphasis.
>
> This is exactly where efforts should be put and not to reproduce the
> same old wrong behavior.

Efforts are ongoing to improve the use of styles, some of which i've 
initiated, but there is a long road before they are completed, but even 
then we wont force users to use styles.

> > Look forward to your next round of suggestions, though i had already
> > gone through all of Heiko's suggestions with him last wednesday after
> > the design meeting. :D
>
> Not sure what does it mean, I'll just check for feature loss then.

I was stating that i had gone through Heiko's suggestions with him as 
you were replying to Heiko's suggestions in the initial email.

> More:
> Frame is doubled in the Insert menu

There is a Frame submenu in the Insert menu, which has two Frame 
commands - one allowing a user to draw the shape of the frame and the 
second which opens up a dialog box to insert a frame.

> Is inserting index something so little used that it should be down in
> the menu too?

Position of index in old menu, 15, position of index in new menu, 19. 
The new insert menu is broken into 8 sections, with related commands 
grouped together and based on usage and importance of the command in the 
creation of documents. So is inserting and index less or more 
important/used than inserting a page break, image, textbox, hyperlink or 
special character (aka symbol)?

> Clear Direct Formatting should be at the same place in Writer and Calc,
> both at the top.

It is placed in the same place in both Writer and Calc, in the section 
with the Styles submenu, as users of styles would be interested to 
'Clear Direct Formatting'.

> Did you remove entries in Calc menu?

No entries were removed in Calc, they were only moved and renamed.

> I've seen 'Rulers' reappeared in the menu in a patch yesterday, this
> feature has been removed since several versions now because of
> compatibility issues, any reason to add it again?

'Rulers' has always been an entry in the view menu, i created a 'Ruler' 
submenu which includes both 'Rulers' and 'Vertical Ruler', which is a 
feature hidden by default in 4.4.

Jay

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted