Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781

Hi Sophie,

On 06/10/2015 05:02 PM, Sophie wrote:
> Hi Jay,
> Le 10/06/2015 14:20, Jay Philips a écrit :
> > Hi Sophie,
> >
> > So editing the data in the database makes it suitable for 'Bibliography
> > Database' to be under Tools but editing the link to the database
> > shouldnt be considered suitable for it to be under Tools. Bibliography
> > Database is the tool and all things related to that tool should be under
> > Tools, similarly Macros is a tool and running, assigning, editing, etc
> > of macros is located under tools. We dont have a Edit > Macros entry.
>
> It's not only for Bibliography, but for all the databases registered
> under LO. An example, I've one template designed for a mailing for
> different sets of clients, those clients are in two different databases
> registered under LO. Once my first mailing done on the first database, I
> edit the link between the template and the database to chose the second
> database under Edit > Exchange database.
> There is no actions on the database, the action is between the template
> and the database or on the template because it keeps the link to the
> database.

Yes i was aware its not only for the bibliography, i did open the 
dialog. Its not such a crucial thing, so its fine where it is. :D

> > To edit a hyperlink, I would use the context menu or click the Hyperlink
> > entry in the toolbar, as the Hyperlink dialog box is multi-purpose.
>
> And if you don't know about context menu (like most of our new users)
> and don't use toolbar, will you chose Insert as main menu to edit the
> hyperlink?

Any user who uses a computer will be introduced to the context menu 
before they likely get introduced to the libreoffice. Context menus are 
used to managed your desktop (e.g. change your wallpaper), context menus 
are used in file managers (e.g. to access properties of a file), they 
are used in browsers (e.g. for copy text of a webpage). The stats do 
show this as well, with 90% of users access editing the hyperlink 
through the context menu and i'd assume the same stats would have been 
for any of the other entries in the Edit menu that i initially removed.

> > Which part is wrong? That it is one of the least used entries in the
> > insert menu, that it is less used that inserting an image, that it isnt
> > used by average users.
> >
> > Section isnt a common feature found in documents, as its not even a
> > common feature found in word processors. I would presume that if we
> > analysed all the documents on bugzilla, that sections would likely be in
> > less that 1% of them. As a simple example, the Writer user guide has
> > tables, frames, images, bookmarks, hyperlinks, and indexes, but no
> > sections.
>
> So the migrations I've made may have been with wrong users as they rely
> on sections first to insert a page (Word usage) but when made aware of
> it used them a lot ;)

I believe sections in Word are different then sections in LibreOffice.

> In general, I find sad to hide things on user's preferences when they
> improve the layout and the robustness of the document, same reasoning as
> styles vs direct formating.

I maybe confused but the section entry isnt being hidden, its position 
in the menu is just further down. One of the reasons why page break is 
at the top of the insert menu is because it will improve document 
layout, as many users still press enter many times to push content to 
the following page.

> > What screen resolution do you have? Both the insert and format menus now
> > have 25 entries in it. In 4.3, before the menus began changing, the
> > insert menu had 23 entries and the format menu had 21 entries.
>
> 1366x768 and both are ok in 4.4

Screenshot of the insert menu on my 1280x768 laptop running Linux Mint 
Mate. Fits just fine for me.

http://www.picpaste.com/insert_menu-rvndXAj7.png

> > The use of direct formatting is not in competition with styles, as you
> > can create a suitable set of direct formatting options and easily
> > convert it into a paragraph style, or set a paragraph style and apply
> > direct formatting to it, and then update the style based on the
> > additional direct formatting.
> >
> > The command is a feature of libreoffice and is no different that opening
> > the font size combobox to increase or decrease the font, so there isnt a
> > need to hide it from the menu bar. The menu bar didnt even have style
> > shortcut entries in it until i just added them, so how would a user know
> > that ctrl+1 is for the Heading 1 style.
>
> Don't misunderstand me, I'm not against changes and value your work, you
> know it, I won't discuss and spend time to check everything otherwise.
> See my explanations below about direct formating and styles

Sorry if that may have come off strong, as it wasnt intended. Yes i know 
you value my work and of course i value yours as well. :D

> > As stated above, direct formatting options are not in competition with
> > styles as styles are simply a bundled collection of direct formatting
> > and not showing direct formatting options because users may not know
> > about styles or choose not to use it is not the correct way to go.
>
> They are not treated the same when written in the file format. Take the
> Documentation templates for example, try to use an old one and to export
> it or to use it with a CAT tool or extract data with a script, direct
> formatting clutters the file everywhere while styles tags are very well
> interpreted. That's why it's important to rely on styles instead of
> direct formatting.

I am aware of how direct formatting and styles work in the file format, 
as i first learnt about the concept when learning HTML and CSS. Yes 
styles can make document exchange easier, but documents are not only 
created to be exchanged. If a user create an odf file and share it with 
a friend who edits it and sends it back to him for more editing, 
document exchange isnt involved. If a user creates a document and 
exports it to PDF to share it online, having it formatted in styles or 
direct formatting will not make a difference, as PDF doesnt preserve styles.

> We are not creating text to be printed, but data to
> be imported and exported in different file formats or environments. For
> this we need robustness when creating our documents, tags that are
> easily interpretable by filters, and so on.

I'm assuming authors would disagree with that, among others, as they 
create text to be printed and dont really care that much about data 
exchange. Of course authors do highly use styles though. :D

> > Efforts are ongoing to improve the use of styles, some of which i've
> > initiated, but there is a long road before they are completed, but even
> > then we wont force users to use styles.
>
> not force them but invite them ;)

Totally agree we should encourage them to use styles, but that doesnt 
mean that we should discourage them from using direct formatting. :D

> > There is a Frame submenu in the Insert menu, which has two Frame
> > commands - one allowing a user to draw the shape of the frame and the
> > second which opens up a dialog box to insert a frame.
>
> You can't have two commands with the same name, side by side in the same
> menu, their must be something wrong somewhere :)

Well the first is called 'Frame' and the second is called 'Frame...', so 
they dont actually have the same name, but i've changed the first to 
'Draw Frame'.

> > Position of index in old menu, 15, position of index in new menu, 19.
> > The new insert menu is broken into 8 sections, with related commands
> > grouped together and based on usage and importance of the command in the
> > creation of documents. So is inserting and index less or more
> > important/used than inserting a page break, image, textbox, hyperlink or
> > special character (aka symbol)?
>
> Maybe make a distinction between what can be achieved using a shortcut
> (i.e. Ctrl+Enter for page break) and what needs a dialog box and put the
> latter upper in the menu as you can't take another route to open it.

Three entries in the insert menu have shortcuts (page break, comment, 
hyperlink) and it wouldnt be logical to places these at the bottom, as 
all three are highly used and couldnt be meaningfully grouped together. 
All entries in the menu bar have accelerators, so easily accessing them 
with the keyboard isnt a problem (e.g. Insert > Image = Alt+I, I).

> > It is placed in the same place in both Writer and Calc, in the section
> > with the Styles submenu, as users of styles would be interested to
> > 'Clear Direct Formatting'.
> It's at the top of the menu in Calc for me.

Then you are likely running an older build, as i did that change on the 5th.

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=ce5470cb3eb7e5394ef1d7cb1906886abab80d5d

> > 'Rulers' has always been an entry in the view menu, i created a 'Ruler'
> > submenu which includes both 'Rulers' and 'Vertical Ruler', which is a
> > feature hidden by default in 4.4.
>
> So you didn't bring back the rulers that was in the Gallery? That was my
> question I didn't thought about the rulers in the UI.

Didnt know there were rulers in the Gallery. :D

> Did you work on the help files already?
> The one you're concerned with in Writer are
> text/swriter/main0100.xhp
> text/swriter/main0200.xhp
> text/swriter/04/01020000.xhp
> I'll search for the Calc and Impress one later today

Unfortunately i havent been able to try and get the help issue sorted 
out, but hope to soon.

Jay

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