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Hi Sophie,

On 06/10/2015 05:02 PM, Sophie wrote:
Hi Jay,
Le 10/06/2015 14:20, Jay Philips a écrit :
Hi Sophie,

So editing the data in the database makes it suitable for 'Bibliography
Database' to be under Tools but editing the link to the database
shouldnt be considered suitable for it to be under Tools. Bibliography
Database is the tool and all things related to that tool should be under
Tools, similarly Macros is a tool and running, assigning, editing, etc
of macros is located under tools. We dont have a Edit > Macros entry.

It's not only for Bibliography, but for all the databases registered
under LO. An example, I've one template designed for a mailing for
different sets of clients, those clients are in two different databases
registered under LO. Once my first mailing done on the first database, I
edit the link between the template and the database to chose the second
database under Edit > Exchange database.
There is no actions on the database, the action is between the template
and the database or on the template because it keeps the link to the

Yes i was aware its not only for the bibliography, i did open the dialog. Its not such a crucial thing, so its fine where it is. :D

To edit a hyperlink, I would use the context menu or click the Hyperlink
entry in the toolbar, as the Hyperlink dialog box is multi-purpose.

And if you don't know about context menu (like most of our new users)
and don't use toolbar, will you chose Insert as main menu to edit the

Any user who uses a computer will be introduced to the context menu before they likely get introduced to the libreoffice. Context menus are used to managed your desktop (e.g. change your wallpaper), context menus are used in file managers (e.g. to access properties of a file), they are used in browsers (e.g. for copy text of a webpage). The stats do show this as well, with 90% of users access editing the hyperlink through the context menu and i'd assume the same stats would have been for any of the other entries in the Edit menu that i initially removed.

Which part is wrong? That it is one of the least used entries in the
insert menu, that it is less used that inserting an image, that it isnt
used by average users.

Section isnt a common feature found in documents, as its not even a
common feature found in word processors. I would presume that if we
analysed all the documents on bugzilla, that sections would likely be in
less that 1% of them. As a simple example, the Writer user guide has
tables, frames, images, bookmarks, hyperlinks, and indexes, but no

So the migrations I've made may have been with wrong users as they rely
on sections first to insert a page (Word usage) but when made aware of
it used them a lot ;)

I believe sections in Word are different then sections in LibreOffice.

In general, I find sad to hide things on user's preferences when they
improve the layout and the robustness of the document, same reasoning as
styles vs direct formating.

I maybe confused but the section entry isnt being hidden, its position in the menu is just further down. One of the reasons why page break is at the top of the insert menu is because it will improve document layout, as many users still press enter many times to push content to the following page.

What screen resolution do you have? Both the insert and format menus now
have 25 entries in it. In 4.3, before the menus began changing, the
insert menu had 23 entries and the format menu had 21 entries.

1366x768 and both are ok in 4.4

Screenshot of the insert menu on my 1280x768 laptop running Linux Mint Mate. Fits just fine for me.

The use of direct formatting is not in competition with styles, as you
can create a suitable set of direct formatting options and easily
convert it into a paragraph style, or set a paragraph style and apply
direct formatting to it, and then update the style based on the
additional direct formatting.

The command is a feature of libreoffice and is no different that opening
the font size combobox to increase or decrease the font, so there isnt a
need to hide it from the menu bar. The menu bar didnt even have style
shortcut entries in it until i just added them, so how would a user know
that ctrl+1 is for the Heading 1 style.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not against changes and value your work, you
know it, I won't discuss and spend time to check everything otherwise.
See my explanations below about direct formating and styles

Sorry if that may have come off strong, as it wasnt intended. Yes i know you value my work and of course i value yours as well. :D

As stated above, direct formatting options are not in competition with
styles as styles are simply a bundled collection of direct formatting
and not showing direct formatting options because users may not know
about styles or choose not to use it is not the correct way to go.

They are not treated the same when written in the file format. Take the
Documentation templates for example, try to use an old one and to export
it or to use it with a CAT tool or extract data with a script, direct
formatting clutters the file everywhere while styles tags are very well
interpreted. That's why it's important to rely on styles instead of
direct formatting.

I am aware of how direct formatting and styles work in the file format, as i first learnt about the concept when learning HTML and CSS. Yes styles can make document exchange easier, but documents are not only created to be exchanged. If a user create an odf file and share it with a friend who edits it and sends it back to him for more editing, document exchange isnt involved. If a user creates a document and exports it to PDF to share it online, having it formatted in styles or direct formatting will not make a difference, as PDF doesnt preserve styles.

We are not creating text to be printed, but data to
be imported and exported in different file formats or environments. For
this we need robustness when creating our documents, tags that are
easily interpretable by filters, and so on.

I'm assuming authors would disagree with that, among others, as they create text to be printed and dont really care that much about data exchange. Of course authors do highly use styles though. :D

Efforts are ongoing to improve the use of styles, some of which i've
initiated, but there is a long road before they are completed, but even
then we wont force users to use styles.

not force them but invite them ;)

Totally agree we should encourage them to use styles, but that doesnt mean that we should discourage them from using direct formatting. :D

There is a Frame submenu in the Insert menu, which has two Frame
commands - one allowing a user to draw the shape of the frame and the
second which opens up a dialog box to insert a frame.

You can't have two commands with the same name, side by side in the same
menu, their must be something wrong somewhere :)

Well the first is called 'Frame' and the second is called 'Frame...', so they dont actually have the same name, but i've changed the first to 'Draw Frame'.

Position of index in old menu, 15, position of index in new menu, 19.
The new insert menu is broken into 8 sections, with related commands
grouped together and based on usage and importance of the command in the
creation of documents. So is inserting and index less or more
important/used than inserting a page break, image, textbox, hyperlink or
special character (aka symbol)?

Maybe make a distinction between what can be achieved using a shortcut
(i.e. Ctrl+Enter for page break) and what needs a dialog box and put the
latter upper in the menu as you can't take another route to open it.

Three entries in the insert menu have shortcuts (page break, comment, hyperlink) and it wouldnt be logical to places these at the bottom, as all three are highly used and couldnt be meaningfully grouped together. All entries in the menu bar have accelerators, so easily accessing them with the keyboard isnt a problem (e.g. Insert > Image = Alt+I, I).

It is placed in the same place in both Writer and Calc, in the section
with the Styles submenu, as users of styles would be interested to
'Clear Direct Formatting'.
It's at the top of the menu in Calc for me.

Then you are likely running an older build, as i did that change on the 5th.

'Rulers' has always been an entry in the view menu, i created a 'Ruler'
submenu which includes both 'Rulers' and 'Vertical Ruler', which is a
feature hidden by default in 4.4.

So you didn't bring back the rulers that was in the Gallery? That was my
question I didn't thought about the rulers in the UI.

Didnt know there were rulers in the Gallery. :D

Did you work on the help files already?
The one you're concerned with in Writer are
I'll search for the Calc and Impress one later today

Unfortunately i havent been able to try and get the help issue sorted out, but hope to soon.


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