[libreoffice-accessibility] RE: Ubuntu LiveCd & Wubi - was Java Nightmare

What you say is true but, I was going for simplicity and ease of setup for
someone unfamiliar with Linux.  I understood everything you wrote but,
that's just because I'm a Linuxoid who likes getting downand dirty with the
cli.  Somebody coming from Windows may not be.  Using a live CD is fast and
reasonly uncomplicated.  Just put in the cd, launch Orca decline
installation and boom, you're in.  All you do then is alt f2 to get the run
menu and type writer. Or, alt f1 and arrow to it in the Unity launcher list.
Stick a flash drive into the machine and save your files onto it and, yes,
I'm going to say it, "PRESTO!"  =)  NO long cli strings and no fancy mucking
around with hardware and grub menus and worrying about your main OS getting
superceeded by your cool new one. 

 

To address your point about the virtual machine, I have heard of people
installing Linux and then having Windows inside of it with a virtual machine
running NVDA.  They say it works well.  I haven't done it because I don't
relish the idea of uninstalling Windows, installing Linux and then
reinstalling Windows on the VM.  If you've already got Windows, my solution
will probably take you an hour to set up, maybe 2 if you need to learn your
way.  As for the ntfs versus ext3 issue for the file systems, the average
user won't know the difference.  I haven't noticed one.  It works very
nicely for me.  It's great because I still have all the different accessible
apps for Windows I am used to and then I get a whole host of new cool stuff
to use in Linux that is accessible.  It's a serious force multiplyer.  As
I've written before on this topic, nothing beats having cake and actualy
getting to eat it too.

 

Now then, if you really want a turnkey solution involving the virtual
machine, Vinux offers just that.  If you get the 3.0 version, it's based on
Ubuntu Lucid and has two magnifyers to choose from already installed, one
being Orca and the other is the Compiz screen magnification software.  The
live cd's of Vinux work nicely too.  However, 3.0 runs Open Office and not
Libreoffice.

 

Best regards,

Alex M

 

 

From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:13 AM
To: Alex Midence; Tom Randall
Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Ubuntu LiveCd & Wubi - was Java Nightmare

 

Hi :)
Ahhh, a LiveCd session of Ubuntu 12.04 sounds like a fast way to a quick
result.  

I guess a fresh install of 12.04 on a new partition would have things set up
right too?  About 10-20Gb is a comfortable amount of space for Ubuntu if you
can't share /home or Swap.  The fresh install sorts out a boot-menu so that
you can choose to use a pre-existing OS that you already have on your system
but by default it puts the new install of 12.04 at the top of that menu.  To
change that login to 12.04 and get to a command-line and paste in these
lines;

cd /etc/grub.d
sudo mv 30_os-prober 08_os-prober
sudo update-grub

If it makes a difference which side the minimise, full-screen and close
buttons are on the title-bar at the top of windows then you can change them
from left (like a Mac) to right (like Windows) by copy&pasting this line

gconftool-2 --set "/apps/metacity/general/button_layout" --type string
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"

Note that should be all on one line but it's wrapped-around on my monitor at
my resolution.  



I concurr about using MS Office if that is what it takes to get a good
result quickly.  Obviously i would prefer people use OpenOffice but if using
MS Office is what it takes to get the job done then do so.  Sometimes
migrating to OpenSource takes a while and until you've managed it you still
need to be able to get your main work done.  

As for Virtual Machines i think having Windows as the host and a Gnu&Linux
inside it is the 'wrong' way around.  One of the crucial advantages of
Gnu&Linux is lost because you would be using the flaky Ntfs file-system
rather than the solidly reliable Ext3.  I suspect that the ideal way around
would mean Orca wouldn't work (unless you ran a VM inside Windows inside the
main VM!) so again the 'wrong' way suddenly becomes the right thing to do.  

Ubuntu offers a better way than a Virtual Machine.  you can install Ubuntu
directly inside Windows using Ubuntu's "Wubi" installer.  Just put the
Ubuntu Cd in after booting into Windows and the option should pop-up.  Few
other distros offer this type of option so you would have to use a VM for
them.  With Ubuntu (or Puppy) you just get the extra possibility.  

Is there an alternative to Orca?  What do other people use with LO?
Regards from 
Tom :)  

 

 


  _____  


From: Alex Midence <alex.midence@gmail.com>
To: Tom Randall <kf6ddt@comcast.net> 
Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Thursday, 30 August 2012, 14:21
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page


Yes, I remember all that with Linux.  However, much progress has been
made in the last two years to get thing sworking out of the box.
Seriously, if you are pressed for time, the single fastest and best
way to go is to download an iso of Ubuntu Precise which has
acessibility out of the box, pop it into your cd rom drive, power up
your machine and hit control s when you hear the drumroll.  When Orca
starts talking, alt tab to the installation dialog and select the try
it out option so you can run it as a live installation.  It will come
up and Libre Office is already installed with all the extensions and
plugins and so forth to make it talk with Orca.  Save your files onto
a flash drive or your hard drive so you can pick up where you left off
next time you power up your pc.  When you are done working for that
day, simply power off your machine and take out the cd.  When it turns
back on, it's going to run windows and be none the wiser that you had
Ubuntu running things for a time.


I know this sounds complex but, if you are approaching a deadline, you
need to do something to get the ball rolling.  If this is not
something you want to tackle, I seriously advise you to put aside any
qualms you have about MS Office and load it up.  You need something
that will get the job done.  Period, end of story.  If your job is on
the line, it is no time to be making statements about software freedom
and so forth by sticking to Open or Libre Office in hopes that you'll
stumble on some magic setup combination that'll get you going.  I know
what I am saying will probably upset some people who read this list
but, frankly, if I have to choose between giving somebody advice that
will keep them employed or chant the party line, the party line will
just have to get on as best it can.  I like free and open source
software.  If it were up to me, I'd switch each and everything I use
to run a fully Libre system at work and at home.  Thing is, there are
too many a11y gaps all over the place for you to do that productively
and efficiently without investing a large amount of time in learning
all sorts of workarounds when there are ways to do what needs toing in
proprietary software that you can meld with your open source stuff.  I
have found this approach to be much more powerful than the sum of its
parts.

Best regards,
Alex M

On 8/29/12, Tom Randall <kf6ddt@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Alex and all.
>
> Well that certainly might be something I will consider doing at some
point.
> Truthfully I've played with Linux on and off over the years and if I
really
> thought it could replace winblows for me I would probably switch in a new
> york minute.  However when looking into it it looked like you had to damn
> near be a computer science major to get it fully up and accessible, you
had
> to install extensions for this, front ends for that, read through reams of
> docs to figure out how to do all this, and so on and so on.  It just
looked
> like it was going to take way more time and effort than I was or am
willing
> to put into it.  So maybe when I can pick up a little bigger hd for this
> system running both Linux and windows on here might be the way to go.
>
> This is not the place to start a windows vs. Linux debate and I assure you
> all I am not trying to start one, if people have the time and patience to
> get Linux up and running and it works for them believe me I think that is
> great and wish I could go that route.  As to which platform is better
> there's not much of a debate about that as far as I am concerned, in many
> ways Linux is superior.  Alex as you said in another message and I agree
> with this, to me the platform is secondary, however I need something that
> works, that is the bottom line.  I hope I don't end up having to install
> more MS bloatware on this system, it runs pretty decent the way it is, but
> I'm running out of time and excuses about getting this paperwork done and
> need a reliable and accessible way to do it.
>
> I may try going back to open office, the thing that worries me is the
calc,
> that is what seems to be the most problematic for me at the moment.  These
> guys where I work are XL freaks and I absolutely have to have a way to
work
> with XL spreadsheets.  I do also have a MacBook with LO on it so I may see
> if the calc is any better on there.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Tom
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex Midence
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:46 PM
> To: Tom Randall
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page
>
> Very sorry, Tom.  I'm fresh out.  Open office may just be your last
> bet.  I understand they sucked in all the Lotus Symphony code.
> Symphony has a reputation for being quite accessible.  I don't know if
> Libreoffice got this code or not.  Hate to say it but, it just may
> have to be MS Office for you in windows.  The only other thing you
> might try is using it the way *I* do but it's a bit complex:
>
> 1.  Install vmware.
> 2.  Create a Linux virtual machine (Ubuntu works well)
> 3.  Access Libreoffice in Linux as a guest operating system with Orca
> as the screen reader.
> 4.  Keep windows as the host system and go back and forth between it
> and Linux in the course of your day.
>
> I use Libreoffice at home.  This is how I do it because I have some
> windows apps I find quite useful and because browsing the web in Linux
> will exhaust the patience of the saintliest of men.  The accessible
> experience in Linux for Libre Office and Open Ofice is like night and
> day compared to Windows.  So, for me, I use MsOffice when I'm in
> windows land and Libre office in Linux.
>
> Regards,
> Alex
>
>
> On 8/29/12, Tom Randall <kf6ddt@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Hi Alex.
> >
> > Oh no worries about asking.  So far as I can tell the assistive
> > technology
> > checkbox is checked, I've tried it both ways since I cannot tell for sure
> >
> > if
> >
> > the box is checked since checkboxes are not being read.
> >
> > This is the only program I am aware of that I am using that requires java
> > accessibility so I have nothing else to test it with.
> >
> > I only have the latest jre installed, that was the first thing I tried
> > when
> >
> > all this started, totally removed java from the system and cleaned up the
> > registry and did a fresh install.  This is a 32-bit system so that is not
> >
> > an
> >
> > issue.  If you've any ideas I'd be glad for them.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alex Midence
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:00 PM
> > To: 'Tom Randall'
> > Subject: RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page
> >
> > Tom, I hate to ask, I'm sure you've taken care of this but ... um .. you
> > do
> > have screen reader/assistive technology enabled in the options menu
> > right?
> > I guess the other question is, how are other Java applications working
> > for
> > you?  Are you able to use other stuff that relies on the access bridge?
> > Aso, how many JRE's do you have on there?  I once had a problem with the
> > java access bridge that turned out to be caused by me having 3 jre's on
> > my
> > system and the JAB being on only two out of those.  Guess which one I was
> > using?  Installing it by hand in the third one fixed it for me but only
> > after much frustration and wasted time.
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tom Randall [mailto:kf6ddt@comcast.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:57 PM
> > To: Alex Midence
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page
> >
> > hi Alex, Tom and all.
> >
> > Yes I am indeed on this list.  Here's the latest update.  I forced Java
> > to
> > do an update so that it would presumably get the latest version with the
> > Jab
> > pre-installed so I wouldn't have to monkey with that.  This appeared to
> > go
> > fine and I was able to turn on the Jab via the Windows control panel.
> > When
> > I run LO 3.60 and go into the java it shows that java is correctly
> > installed
> > with accessibility.  However it behaves exactly the same, menus are not
> > read
> > and neither is the state of checkboxes.  When I have the energy I am
> > going
> > to totally uninstall it and delete all data and install the latest
> > version
> > from the site and see if that works.
> >
> > I used Open Office for quite some time and as you said found it pretty
> > acceptable in most cases and I suppose I could go back to that if
> > necessary.
> >
> > I just figured it'd be better to be running something that is still being
> > developed and worked on.  Fortunately I do not need the presentation
> > package
> > so whether impress is accessible or not doesn't matter to me all that
> > much
> > although I would hope this will be worked on.  What I absolutely have to
> > have is writer and calc working, I have to be able to process documents
> > and
> > do invoices for my work.
> >
> > So that's where I am now.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alex Midence
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:22 AM
> > To: Tom Davies
> > Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org ; Tom Randall
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Sorry to hear you are having such a time of it.  I don't know how open
> > you
> > are to this suggestion but, I've had success with Open Office in Windows.
> > Libreoffice has not worked for me.  I use Jaws and NVDA.  I have never
> > used
> > Supernova so, I don't know how it will react but Openoffice 3.6 (I think
> > that's the latest release), worked ok in writer.  Jaws even read Writer
> > ok.
> > NVDA did just wonderfully with it.
> > Calc was usable in NVDA but not in Jaws so, I don't know how it'll do in
> > Supernova.  Impress was totally unusable pretty much all around.
> > It was a bummer for me.  I'm a corporate trainer.  I get up in front of
> > groups of people with presentations up on a projecter and gas away at
> > them
> > about this and that.  Thus far, I hate to say it but Microsoft Powerpoint
> > is
> > the best and most accessible presentation product for someone in my
> > situation.  Impress has yet to Impress me in either Libre or Open Office.
> >
> > hth,
> > Alex M
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/29/12, Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Hi :)
> > > I am not sure if Tom Randall is on this list.  You guys seem to have
> > > solved a lot of these java issues so i thought forwarding the thread
> > > here just in case you can help hi8m where others can't.
> > >
> > > Also i made a rough wiki-page that is intended to help people solve
> > > java issues.
> > > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq/Java
> > > I think it might need sub-pages to deal with issues such as the bridge.
> > > If
> > > you are able to radically rewrite the wiki-page to make it useful and
> > > need me to make extra sub-pages then please just let me know through
> > > this
> > list.
> > > It sometimes takes me a couple of days to react so my apologies for
> > > being so slack!  If you are new to wiki-editing then i might be able
> > > to help with formatting and other issues.
> > > Regards from
> > > Tom :)

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