Re: [libreoffice-users] 4.0.3

Hi Amit,

I'm combining a couple of mails here:

> If we have to beat Microsoft then we need to focus only on what
> Microsoft provides and not on .odt format, etc.
This is most definitely *not* what LO should be doing. .odt is a good,
open standard that we need to keep using, so that different software
can collaborate. Microsoft's file formats are not open, and do not
follow standards, they even change the format themselves every so
often. Trying to keep up with that (which LO does) means little
bugs and constant changes (and thus necessitates releasing often), and
worst of all if we abandon .odt in favour of that, we will lose the
standard, open format that is one of the best features of LO. Sure, at
the moment most people only worry about does it work with MS Office,
but having an open standard means not only am I sure I will be able to
read my documents in 20 years, but other software that is written to
the same standard can inter-operate on my documents, and I can do batch
operations on the documents with other tools, because they are simply
compressed xml files. Open standards are a *good thing*, and one of the
main reasons to choose LO over MS Office.

> being totally compatible and stable with the formats that Micorosoft
> supports
This is almost impossible, given that the formats are closed, and don't
stay standard.

> For me, this is the most important free software, even more important
> than linux because it saves me money.
Not everybody has the same motives as you, and therefore they have
different priorities.

> The main problem here is that the user does not know wheher the next
> release is more stable than previous one or not.
I guess you are right on this one. Maybe the LO website should be a bit
more explicit in detailing to new users the difference between the
extra stable older software, the newer software that is mostly stable
and has newer features, and the ultra-new beta versions that aren't
stable yet. Everybody here seems to know the difference and recommends
the right product to the right people, but we can't expect everybody
who goes to the site to download LO to know what the different versions
mean. Maybe this is something for the site maintainers to think about?

> A customer can compromise on fetaures but not on stability
Actually, from what I've gathered from this list, it seems the problems
half the time are new features that users want, and half the time bugs.
Well, maybe not exactly a 50-50 split, but still. Yes, there are a few
complaints about things that work in MS Office that don't work in LO,
and users could end up going back to MS Office if they can't do what
they are used to in LO. But there are also things users want to do that
don't exist in MS Office. Those features would make a compelling reason
to switch, if LO could do stuff that MS Office couldn't that people
found usefull. I think there is enough demand from users for new
features that devs are caught in a catch-22. If they develop new
features and forget about the bugs, people complain the software is not
stable, if they only fix bugs, people demand new features and complain
the product is stagnating. There are only so many devs, so they do the
best they can. And in order to get new features *and* new bug fixes
out, they need to release often. I say kudos to them, I think they're
doing a great job.

So no, I don't think users *can* compromise on features. Some can, but
others can't. The devs need to balance the two.

Regards

Paul



On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:16:58 +0530
Amit Choudhary <contact.amit.choudhary.india@gmail.com> wrote:

> If we have to beat Microsoft then we need to focus only on what
> Microsoft provides and not on .odt format, etc. We cannot beat
> Microsoft by introducing a new format and expecting customers to use
> new formats (I use Microsoft formats only and whatever other formats
> is suported by Microsoft).
>
> We need to beat Microsoft at its own game by doing what they are
> doing in office suite. A new format is not going to change the game
> but being totally compatible and stable with the formats that
> Micorosoft supports (xls, xlsx, doc, docx, save as pdf, text, etc.)
> is going to change the game.
>
> Amit
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Amit Choudhary <
> contact.amit.choudhary.india@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > I have been programming since 1987. I have all my degrees in
> > computer science/networking. I have worked for companies like Cisco
> > systems, Juniper networks and have turned down offers from
> > companies like Google and Microsoft for one reason or other.
> >
> > This whole software industry is going in the wrong direction.
> > Actually, by now we should have been done by all the software (all
> > the necessary software developed and installed and used, no bugs,
> > etc.
> >
> > We need to beat Microsoft because we do not want to pay for Office
> > suite.
> >
> > The best way of doing this is to release stable versions only and
> > this can be done by increasing the QA cycle period.
> >
> > I do not release buggy software unless it has been approved by
> > management. And I have not released any software that's gonna hurt
> > the customer even if I have to get into discussions with managers,
> > directors, etc.
> >
> > This whole idea of releasing software frequently is a scam, because
> > work doesn't get done properly in a small time window. No one gets
> > any time for innovation and everyone is just interested in the
> > release. And in the end, the software dies down because the
> > frequent release does not fix things properly and introduces new
> > bugs and over time all these quickfixes kill the product.
> >
> > THERE IS NO DEMAND FROM CUSTOMERS FOR FREQUENT RELEASES. THE DEMAND
> > IS FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE SOFTWARE ANALYSTS AND THEY WANT SOMETHING TO
> > DO AND HENCE THEY WANT FREQUENT RELEASES. IT IS A BIG SCAM.
> >
> > I use around 5-6 external softwares and if everyone is releasing
> > something every month then it becomes a headache to me.
> >
> > RELEASING ONLY TWICE A YEAR IS VERY FOOD.
> >
> > THE BIGGEST RISK OF RELEASING FREQUENTLY IS THAT ORIGINAL PROBLEMS
> > ARE NOT SOLVED PROPERLY AND QUICKFIXES MAKE MANAGING THE SOFTWARE
> > COMPLICATED AND IN THE END THE DEVELOPERS GIVE UP AND THE PRODUCT
> > IS SHELVED.
> >
> > AND ALL THIS HAPPENS WITH PAID SOFTWARE TOO.
> >
> > Amit
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Tom Davies
> > <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>wrote:
> >
> > > Hi :)
> > > I think with Base it's better to stay with older branches.  The
> > > 3.6.7 might be better.  if the 4.0.3 works for you then stick with
> > > that.
> > >
> > > Sadly there are still not many devs working on Base.  It's not
> > > flashy enough!
> > > Regards from
> > > Tom :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: "la10497@iperbole.bologna.it" <la10497@iperbole.bologna.it>
> > > > To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> > > > Sent: Friday, 26 July 2013, 10:31
> > > > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] 4.0.3
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, the "3rd digit rule" doesn't work as goog as
> > > > expected...
> > > >    I use report builder in base, 4.0.3.3 version. Download 4.0.4
> > > > and
> > > > report builder no more works (crash in opening).
> > > >
> > > >    thanks anyway for developers work, I remember this is a free
> > > > sw, at
> > > the
> > > > end....
> > > >
> > > >    Federico Quadri
> > > >
> > > >    Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk> ha scritto:
> > > > > Hi :)
> > > > >   That 3rd digit is roughly the equivalent of "Service pack".
> > > > > So usually the higher it is the more stable it is.  Of course
> > > > > even just bug-patches and fixes can sometimes introduce
> > > > > unexpected problems that might not get caught by QA.
> > > > >
> > > > >   The best answer, imo, is to keep a very stable version that
> > > > > you are happy enough with on all the machines you look after
> > > > > especially ones that have limited access or that you can't
> > > > > reach easily.  Then on 1 machine find some way of being able to
> > > > > test-drive an occasional beta-test versions before it gets
> > > > > released.  Preferably do about 1 per branch.  The problem is
> > > > > that things you might care about deeply might not even be
> > > > > getting used by other people at all.  So it's only you that
> > > > > might notice.  So if you didn't test-drive then the problem
> > > > > might never be found.  Also it's better to do your testing on a
> > > > > beta release rather than a full release because it's during the
> > > > > early beta stage that the most devs are the most focussed on
> > > > > the 1 single version and trying to solve the most problems
> > > > > quickly.  Also it's when the fewest other people are making
> > > > > bug-reports.
> > > > >
> > > > >   There are various ways you could make sure you have access to
> > > > > 1 version for use for work that has a dead-line and another
> > > > > version that you can just use to try things out and make sure
> > > > > it all works.
> > > > >
> > > > >   Regards from
> > > > >   Tom :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >    From: Amit Choudhary
> > > > > > <contact.amit.choudhary.india@gmail.com> To:
> > > > > > "users@global.libreoffice.org" <Users@global.libreoffice.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, 26 July 2013, 3:35 Subject: [libreoffice-users]
> > > > > > 4.0.3
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    I was using 4.0.2 and then I downloaded 4.0.3 but 4.0.3 is
> > > > > > not as stable as
> > > > > >    4.0.2. So, now I am downloading 4.0.4.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    I am more interested in stable and feature rich (optional)
> > > > > > software rather
> > > > > >    than frequently released software.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    Stablility is very important because a non-stable software /
> > > software
> > > > > >    having many bugs results in loss of time and frustartion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    Amit
> > > >
> > > > --
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