RE: [libreoffice-users] Rountrip Conversion Problems (was Re: Should LibreOffice ... secret formats?)

Once I stopped vibrating over my disappointment with the multi-column text-flow problem, I 
remembered that Microsoft had provided some side-by-side OOXML and ODF documents (and some .doc 
versions) for use in feature- and conversion-checking 
<http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/oic/201102/msg00006.html>.

I did not find one that dealt with multi-column pages, but I did find interesting ones that 
illustrated text frames with text flow among them.

I also found out how easy it is to make a multi-column page, so I will see if I can duplicate 
Spencer's test case in Word 2011 directly and then see how it goes back and forth with LibreOffice. 
 Perhaps that will reduce the degree of bafflement about what the disconnects are.

I will report back ...

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org] 
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 18:31
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: spencer.graves@prodsyse.com
Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Rountrip Conversion Problems (was Re: Should LibreOffice ... 
secret formats?)

It is tough to figure out what bug to report in the multi-column text-flow problem.

In the dashed line problem, it is easy to report two bugs, one for dashed lines to .doc and one for 
dashed lines from .doc.  

In this multi-column flow case, LibreOffice can round trip, and the bug is in the change to column 
and spacing widths that have the material not fit and not flow properly.

So there is a bug around not being able to consume what it produces properly.

THE SERIOUS INTEROP QUESTION

The other problem, that I don't know how to deal with, is whether that is a proper .doc for what is 
in the .odt at all.  I *think* the problem you are seeing is that the frame on one of the images in 
column 2 is actually too wide.  Or maybe column 1, and it forced the kind of adjustment you are 
seeing.  But the consequences in Word are particularly awful.

What is even more amazing is that what Word does with that specific .doc has not changed since 
Office 97!!  NoOp gets near-identical results from the .doc in Word 97 that I get from it in Word 
2010.  I bet if the second page is examined, the column 2 content will be seen to have flown down 
to the second column there.  (The only difference that I see in Word 2010 compared with the Word 97 
screen shot is that 2010 has a double title over the graph in column 3 and consequently more text 
flows to the top of column 4.  I hadn't noticed that additional title doubling in my earlier 
report.)

On the other hand, what Word 2010 does with the original ODT is strangely close to what it does 
with the .DOC, and that is *really* inexplicable.

So there's not enough here for an isolated bug.

MORE DETAIL: I forgot to check this before.  When the .doc is opened in Word 2010, the columns are 
set as four across, with column 1 1.6", 2-3 at 1.25" apiece, and column 4 at 1.6".  The spacing is 
0.7".  The equal column width box is not checked.  The margins are 0.35" top, left, right, and 
bottom, with no gutter.  The page is US Letter.

If I check "equal column width" I get 1.43" columns all the way across and 0.7" spacing. The 
duplicated titles I mention disappear, but there are other duplications in the columns.

(sigh)

FURTHER ANALYSIS POSSIBILITIES

Although it introduces more variables that can't be controlled, I think there are three avenues of 
further exploration:

 1. Make a .doc that seems as correct as is possible.  See what LibreOffice does with that.  Then 
make an .odt from that .doc from Office 2010 to see how that round-tripping works.  This might 
localize *something*.

 2. Do the same thing with .docx in both directions.  If experience is any guide, this will be 
worse, but because .docx is an XML format it might be possible to find more clues by inspecting the 
XML that travels in various directions.

 3. Make a Microsoft Word XML file too.  This is a rarely-used variation that *might* provide more 
clues.  There are filters for reading those into LibreOffice also, although I have no clue 
concerning their quality.  (This can be round-tripped out of LibreOffice too, I believe.)

There is a project, Apache Poi, that has Java tools for manipulating and converting Microsoft 
Office format documents.  That might help to examine the .doc files to see where the discrepancies 
arise.  That's a lot of work to invest for this particular file.  I think starting with variations 
of simple cases may work better.



-----Original Message-----
From: Spencer Graves [mailto:spencer.graves@prodsyse.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 17:29
To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Rountrip Conversion Problems (was Re: Should LibreOffice ... 
secret formats?)

Hi, Dennis:


       Thanks very much.  Should I do something to file bug reports on 
these items?


       Spencer


On 9/11/2011 5:08 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> I repeated test similar to those NoOp also performed to see how the variations that I made with 
> the dashed-line slide image show up here.
>
> CONCLUSION
>
> The round trip from Document A to B back to C is definitely broken in Libre Office in the manner 
> described by Spencer.
>
> The opening of either Document A or Document B in Word 2010 produces a terrible result where the 
> 4 columns are longer and flow at their bottoms onto a second page.
>
> This is so bad I despair of doing any further isolation.
>
>   - Dennis
>
> ANALYSIS DETAILS
>
> A. Document A - The ODT from Spencer. In LO 3.3.2 I see 4 columns, each 1.5" wide, with about 
> 0.5" between.  The Format | Columns dialog reports 1.42" with 0.70" spacing and AutoWidth is 
> selected.
>
> B. Document B - The Word 27-2000 format DOC from Document A via Libre Office, by Spencer
>
> C. Document C - The ODT file that reflects what is seen when Document B is opened in Libre Office.
>
> When I open Document A in Word 2010, I see the problem that NoOp reported, concerning a blank 
> column showing up.  There is also an error message about "Drawn Objects and Text Boxes 1."  I 
> also see that there is a second page having 4 more columns (the 4th column is empty).  It appears 
> that the columns stretch vertically down onto the second page.  That is, there are only 4 columns 
> but each column is two pages long, and the top of the second column is all blank, so its content 
> only appears on the second page.  There are also columns whose content image flows off the bottom 
> of the page and is chopped off.
>
> When I open Document B in Word 2010, What I see is almost the same as when opening Document A in 
> Word, but the B view has a duplicate title over one of the figures of the Financial Industry 
> Profits graph in column 2.
>
> Document C in LibreOffice is now 2 pages because the column sizes are screwed up, leading to 4 
> columns on the first page and a fifth column on the second page.
>
> There's no point in making a Document X because I have no means to obtain a correct version in 
> Word to try saving back.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NoOp [mailto:glgxg@sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 15:09
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
>
> On 09/11/2011 11:06 AM, Spencer Graves wrote:
> > Another example:
> >
> >
> > 1.  Download
> > "http://www.cagreens.org/sclara/resources/flyers/noCreditCd-bookmark20110306.odt";.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2.  Open in LibreOffice 3.4.3.  Save as MS Word 97 *.doc format.
> >
> >
> > 3.  Close, then reopen the *.doc version:  When I did this now under
> >   Windows 7, this changed the widths of the columns had changed and
> > with it the column breaks, etc.  I checked Format ->  Page ->  Columns:
> > *.odt showed from Autowidth with columns = 1.42, space = 0.70;  *.doc
> > had columns = 2.13, space = 0.70.  The numbers do not make sense to
> > me, but the visual change is clear.  I noticed this problem with an
> > earlier version of LibreOffice 3.4 and I think also with Open Office
> > 3.3.
> ...
>
> I tested as per the above, and indeed LO does save the .doc with
> modified column widths. I tested by saveas in LO 3.3.3 and then opened
> the .doc with:
>
> LO 3.3.3 (linux)
> LO 3.4.3 (linux)
> OOo 3.2.1 (go-oo build - Ubuntu linux)
> OOo 3.2.0 (Windows)
> MSO Word97 (yes I have MSO97 on an VirtuaBox Win2K install)
>
> The worst/more serious issue is that in MSO Word97 blank second column
> is inserted/shown. This means that the document renders only 3 populated
> columns rather than 4. Screenshot is here:
>
> http://imageshack.us/f/841/screenshotwin2kprorunni.png/
>
> So, you've a valid bug to report. Check to see if one hasn't already
> been filed before filing yours. Start a new thread regarding the problem
> when you've done that and I'll be glad to contribute/add to the bug
> report with my tests/screenshots.


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