RE: [libreoffice-users] Rountrip Conversion Problems (was Re: Should LibreOffice ... secret formats?)

Spencer sent me reproducible test cases for the two problems he has raised here.  

I have performed a conforming forensic analysis (without having looked inside the format at all).

Here is the situation for the case of dashed lines in presentations.

CONCLUSIONS

This is a situation that has been seen in analysis on this list before.  Both products have 
difficult with round-tripping into the other format and back.  

 1. In the specific case that Spencer reported, it appears that LibreOffice produces an unbroken 
line when saving the dashed line into an Office 97-2000 PowerPoint .PPT format.

 2. In the specific case that Spencer reported, it also appears that LibreOffice presents an 
unbroken line when receiving an actual dashed line from an Office 97-2000 PowerPoint .PPT format.

 3. Although PowerPoint 2010 will recognize the correct dashed line when opening the ODP directly 
(not as a PPT), dashed lines produced in ODP format from PowerPoint 2010 are not read correctly (as 
ODP format) by either PowerPoint 2010 or LibreOffice Impress.

This is based on simple observation, without attempting any analysis to isolate the problems more 
specifically.  It appears to be enough for 4 bug reports though.  PPTX was not tested.  That may 
lead to more bug reports all-around.

 - Dennis

DETAILED PROCEDURE

A. Document A from Spencer: Original ODP  

This is a single-slide .ODP where the only figure is a diagonal dashed line.  The dashes are 
relatively long and the space between the three dashes is about the same width as a dash.  This 
document opens just fine in LibreOffice 3.3.2, the one I use for production on my desktop system.
  This document also opens correctly (as an .ODP) in PowerPoint 2010.  I needed to do a 
document-repair click-through because PowerPoint 2010 expects ODF 1.1 and the ODF 1.2 package from 
LO has unexpected XML content not defined in ODF 1.1.  But the slide opens without problems. The 
dashed line is correct.

X. Document X from Dennis. (PPT from the original ODP using PowerPoint 2010) 

I also saved this opened ODP from PowerPoint 2010 as an Office 97-2000 PowerPoint .PPT file.  It 
re-opens just fine in PowerPoint 2010.

[Side Note: There is an interesting difference in the presentation of the dashed line in PowerPoint 
2010 in comparison with LibreOffice.  If I zoom the slide larger, the sizes of the dashes and 
spaces between them do not changes.  Instead, the number of dashes and spaces increases or 
decreases as the zoom makes the line longer or shorter. In LibreOffice Impress, the line retains 3 
dashes, but their length and that of the intervening space changes as the slide is viewed at 
different zoom magnifications.  I am certain that the ODF Specification does not say anything about 
the visual presentation of the dashed line.  I don't know if [MSO-PPT] does or not.  I doubt that 
the OOXML specification does either, but I should check that before I perpetuate another myth.  
This is a finer-grained interoperability issue than the problem Spencer reports.  It appears to be 
within the allowed discretion for implementations.]

B. Document B from Spencer. (PPT from the original ODF using LibreOffice Impress)

This is a .PPT that Spencer made by Save As from LibreOffice Impress (just as Document X was made 
by Save As from Word 2010).

Document B, when opened by PowerPoint 2010, shows a single solid line.

C. Document C from Spencer. (ODP made after opening Document B in LibreOffice)

This document is provided as confirmation that when Document B is re-opened in LibreOffice, it also 
shows a single solid line.

Y. Document Y from Dennis. (ODP made after opening Document X in LibreOffice)

In LibreOffice Impress, Document X opens the same as Document B, losing the line.  The dashed line 
is known to be there from the PowerPoint 2010 side, but it turns into a solid line on input by 
LibreOffice Impress.  Document Y captures the ODP of that result.

Z. Document Z from Dennis (ODP made from Document Y using PowerPoint 2010)

LibreOffice Impress opens this document and retains a dashed line, but the dashes are much smaller 
and there are many of them.  At 100% these view as intermittent long and short dashes.

PowerPoint 2010 opens this document (which it produced) and the dashed line has turned into a solid 
line.







-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org] 
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 13:15
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: spencer.graves@prodsyse.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Rountrip Conversion Problems (was Re: Should LibreOffice ... secret 
formats?)

I've changed the subject because it appears there is an issue which is entirely one about 
LibreOffice.

Spencer, can you provide a small sample of the following:

 1. An .ODP of the document that shows the line formats you are concerned with.

 2. The .PPT that you get when you save in that format.

 3. The .ODP of the document that you see when opening the .PPT in LibreOffice.

You can send those to me directly as attachments in an e-mail, or put them on a global file-sharing 
location (even Windows Live SkyDrive will work) and let us know where they are.

Then the exact point where there is information loss/modification can be pinpointed better and a 
bug report created if called for (and if there isn't one already).

While others of us can doubtless reproduce this on our own, it is helpful to have something that 
demonstrates the problem exactly as it occurs for you.

 - Dennis

PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS

In the described scenario, it appears that at no time did a Microsoft application touch the 
document.

It was saved from LO and then re-opened in LO.  Apparently, either the save process or the input 
process (or both) failed to preserve toe dashed line.  

If the dashed line is not supported by the .PPT 97-2000 Microsoft Format, that would be a problem.  
I see no indication that this is the case in Graves' report.

The problem appears to be one of fidelity between the LO output converter and the LO input 
converter for .ppt format.  Generally, one does not think too much of converters that can't get 
that much right.

Without discussing whether there should be such conversions available in the first place, the 
situation this user is confronted with is (1) the conversion is offered, and (2) the conversion 
fails in a situation that is important to the particular user.

This situation might be better served by a bug report.


PS: I must point out that the primary marketing thrust of OpenOffice.org was and is that it offers 
(unqualified) support for key Microsoft Office formats, it is free, and it runs on more than 
Windows.  I don't know how LibreOffice is positioned, but it would be interesting to see what would 
happen if "support for Microsoft Office formats" were to be removed from all promotional statements 
concerning LibreOffice.

-----Original Message-----
From: e-letter [mailto:inpost@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 12:47
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?

On 11/09/2011, Spencer Graves <spencer.graves@prodsyse.com> wrote:
> LibreOffice.  I've had problems with LibreOffice where I save something
> in *.doc format or *.ppt and reopen it, and it's different.

[ ... ]

>        For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line
> and save it in MS PowerPoint 97 format.  Close then reopen it.  When I
> did that just now under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it
> displayed solid.  If I do NOT have to share it with an MS Office user,
> then I keep it in Open Office format.  Otherwise, I must convert at some

[ ... ]


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