Re: [libreoffice-design] SIdebar Navigation

2012/5/23 Andrew Pullins <android2772@gmail.com>

> Mirek,
>
> > > I knew that you would chime in saying that we should stick to the HIG.
> > > Every other app uses that form of navigation because its in the HIG
> (that
> > > Is Human Interface * Guidelines* not absolutely must be this way
>  rules).
> > >
> >
> > The HIG is for keeping some consistency across the platform. No, they
> don't
> > have to be followed all the time, but if they aren't followed, then it
> > causes users some pain, as they're used to certain items being in certain
> > places, and they're muscle memory is adjusted to that.
>
> It's not that much different, click home or click menu > home. Wow what a
> pain that was I had to tap twice.

It is a bother, because you're not used to it. It's as if clicking the
"Maximize" button on a window in LibreOffice gave you a menu every time,
with one of the items in the menu being "Maximize". It's bothersome to have
to tap twice when in every other app you just tap once.

> > For example, LibreOffice could choose to get rid of the "maximize" window
> > control on Windows because the users could just use Aero Snap to
> maximize,
> > but Windows users would be confused and frustrated, as they're used to
> > Windows applications featuring a maximize button.
>
> First Window$ has that to. Second windows has had many many yeas to ingrain
> things into users minds. These tablets have not even been out an entire
> decade. Who knows google may even change the HIG to this new way of
> navigating. Some apps have already adopted the Facebook menu and I think
> many more will and soon that will not be so alien.

The HIG is there for a reason -- to maintain consistency across the
platform. Android's HIG has been released only recently and not all app
developers have had time to adjust their UIs to it. That doesn't mean we
should respect it.
If app developers choose not to respect it, Android will be a mess of
different UIs.

On the Mac, all apps have menubars at the top. On Windows, they have them
below the title bar. There are advantages to both. In order to maintain
consistency, LibreOffice has menubars below the title bar on Windows and at
the top of the screen on the Mac. Think how annoying it would be if
LibreOffice put your menus below the titlebar on the Mac when every other
app has them at the top of the screen.

> > LibreOffice will already be alien to the platform for there are no other
> > > apps like it(other then the very very very crappy M$O knockoffs on the
> > > platform). many apps are switching to this new navigation or already
> have
> > > something similar(springpad, spotify the youversion bible app are two
> that
> > > I can think of). not to mention that Google's Gmail, and Google maps
> kinda
> > > use this, like the youversion bible app its not quite the same but its
> > > still similar.
> >
> > There's a bit of a difference between LibreOffice and the Facebook app
> here.
> > The Facebook application doesn't really have a home screen or an overview
> > screen, so the category picker serves as the overview instead.
>
> Facebook once did have a home screen and it was horrible.

Then they designed it badly. Frankly, the Facebook sidebar could be easily
turned into a separate screen -- it wouldn't be that different
The Google+ app has a homescreen. It's especially awesome on its new iOS
release (http://theflickcast.com/wp-content/uploads//google-plus-ios-new.jpgcoming
soon to Android as well).

> > Because of that, it's acceptable (though not ideal) that Facebook uses
> this sidebar
> > instead.
>
> I think it was the best solution.
>
> > However, LibreOffice does have a true homescreeen, a true overview -- the
> > file manager. And that's the screen the Up button should go to.
>
> Are you talking about the phones back arrow or the home button? Because the
> up button sounds weird.

http://developer.android.com/design/patterns/navigation.html

> > The file manager shouldn't take any longer to load. The buttons on it
> > should load immediately and the thumbnails of documents should load
> > afterwards.
>
> Yah it shouldn't bit most likely ummm will... Even if you make it work the
> way you say.

It will take exactly the same time to load if the thumbnails aren't loaded
up front.

> > That's actually the worst part -- the user wouldn't know where to look
> for
> > his tools.
> > If we follow the HIG, then every button has its rightful place and the
> user
> > knows where to look for it.
>
> Ok out of all my apps on my phone only tree of them had some kind of
> overflow menu. One being gmail witch is one of nine google applications. So
> I'm not sure how much users are used to looking in the overflow menu. Could
> you tell me of some apps that you have that uses them.

You probably have a phone with a hardware menu button. In that case, you
don't see the overflow menu. Or maybe you don't have Ice Cream Sandwich yet.
The overflow should be present in all 9 apps from Google.

> > > yes to get to the file browser it would take one tap of ether the home
> > > button or the back/up arrow and the app would still use that to
> navigate.
> > > but it would still take two taps and load time to get to "new" and
> > > "templates". thats more time then two taps.
> >
> > As I said, the load time would be the same. Thumbnails would load after
> the
> > screen and its buttons.
>
> I know how this would work and I still think an application like ours would
> take longer to load then you think or users want. Especially when the users
> have many files.

It doesn't matter how many files the user has. The file list will load
after the screen and action bars are loaded.

> > > you say that these should be in the overflow menu because thats where
> they
> > > are on the desktop because thats where they have always been on the
> > > desktop, but IMHO these options should not be there on the desktop.  on
> the
> > > table and phone this is stupid to place them there. the split button
> would
> > > also be a document menu like in your citrus UI, a place where people
> would
> > > expect to find these items. when I think of tool bar I think it should
> hold
> > > things like tools to work on a new document, not things I should be
> doing
> > > to a finished document.
> >
> > That's where they belong on Android, not on the desktop.
> > They're not in the toolbar, they're in the overflow menu, which is
> > appropriate for actions done to a finished document.
> > And these actions certainly don't fit in a navigation bar.
>
> I think I may have been thinking Bout a different overflow menu, ether way
> I don't think it make much since.

Sorry, I don't understand this.

> > > And here they would be accessed with two taps as well. "Options"
> belongs in
> > > > the overflow menu as well -- two taps.
> > >
> > > again why should this be in the overflow menu, because its there on the
> > > desktop, that is not a reason for it to be there.
> >
> >
> > Because it's there in every other Android app, and the user knows to look
> > for it there.
>
> I don't know of many apps that use it so give me some examples.

All of the default apps, Google+, Boid, Firefox, Chrome, Google Drive, etc.
Take a look at the website http://holoeverywhere.com/ where a lot of other
apps are listed.

> > > why don't we need an about item. and again it should not be in the
> overflow
> > > menu. by this time the overflow menu (while for OVERFOW) is way
> OVERFLOWING
> > > and has too much in there.
> >
> > That's why we don't need an about item -- it's an unnecessary dialog, and
> > we already have too many commands.
>
> Ok I was thinking the toolbar overflow and the application overflow was the
> same overflow witch having it there would be too many options.

How so?
Remember that contextual actions would be shown as a contextual action bar,
and therefore contextual actions (like text formatting) and non-contextual
actions (search, save, print) don't mix.

> > > > but we certainly don't want a "Close" item.
> > >
> > > yes we most certainly do my good friend, just hitting the home menu on
> the
> > > phone keys or back arrow a few time does not close the app, and its not
> a
> > > good thing to keep apps open useing all our users resources. when I
> want to
> > > close an app I want to do it in the app not some other app. also
> another
> > > reason  this is in there is think about how you can close the desktop
> app.
> > > you have clicking the "X,red circal" clicking file > Exit, and you have
> > > ctrl+W or Q. there needs to be many ways to do some things. yes some of
> > > these things could just be placed in the apps menu dialog when the user
> > > hits the phones menu key, but some people do not know that you can do
> that
> > > all the time, some apps you can not do that all the time.
> >
> > On Android, you can hit the "multitask" button (it's the third system
> > button) to see all the running apps and swipe them away to close them.
>
> > That's the standard way of doing it on Android, and that's why no Android
> > application (except perhaps a few shotty ones) features a "Close" button.
>
> On my phone Pandora, two irc clients, att navigator, car panel, dock mobile
> has button , pocket band, and radiou has button, all have exit menus or
> buttons.

These are old designs back from times when there was no easy way to quit
apps. It's a remain of the pre-Holo era, not something we want to follow.

> > > the side bar is not only a navigation tool but like the file menu and
> much
> > > more. I was not sure what to place in each screen but all I was trying
> to
> > > show is that the menu is contextual depending on what screen you are
> in. we
> > > would need to figure out what all belongs in there.
> >
> > I feel like this sidebar would frustrate users more than if we follow the
> > HIG. I still don't see a single advantage of it -- as I demonstrated,
> > accessing its buttons would be just as slow if not slower as if we used
> the
> > UI elements in the HIG.
>
> have you seen how fast the side menu pops out. You make it seem like
> creating a new document would be like
> tap...............................tap, when it would be more like tap..tap
> or tap tap it the get used to it.

Again, opening the overview wouldn't be slower. The user would also be used
to the new buttons always being on the bottom of the screen, and therefore
could push them faster (whereas they're harder to target in the menu).

> > Opening a different document would be much slower.
> > On the contrary -- this sidebar would be frustrating for users that are
> > used to the Android platform.
>
> I don't think this menu is frustrating at all. If we can get some better
> examples in it I think you would see the benefit. It would be more
> beneficial when editing a document then in the manager or viewer. But since
> we are one shipping these views right now that's all I did.


I don't understand the last sentence.

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