Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

> I don't think Citrus is a bad idea, on the whole. The problem with it is:
> they have been conceived as a whole. Things should look pretty, of course
> (my girlfriend loves LibreOffice, but my brother won't use it unless it
> looks better -- same story everywhere), but that's not our only concern: we
> already have a large userbase, and a way of how things work in the
> interface. You cannot simply change this overnight. But you know that.


our userbase FOR THE MAJORITY(I say it that way not to insult you or any
thing but to emphasize that I know that what I am about to say is not true
for ALL of our users but FOR THE MAJORIRY) are Open Source people who are
used to things changed every 6 months any way. besides Citrus is different,
but it is also exactly the same, and works just how you should expect it to.
I know that does not make since but that just the way it is.


> So, assuming you know that, this is not a matter of embracing Mirek's
> design or not, but whether to embrace it in each part. That's why there's
> is the UI_Elements [1] page: we should see them as parts, discuss one by one
> and find out if it's for better to change it or not.


if you look at the page you cited you will see that most of it
was purposed my Mirek's and only one thing was not. I asked the question to
see what people thought of Citrus. do people like it, do they hate it. yes
we need to take it apart and implement it one peace at a time. as you
pointed out I do know that it will take time. and implementing bits and
peaces is apart of that.


> Small changes are easier to do, to manage, to get used to (from a user and
> developer point of view), but most of all, it needs hacking, so you cannot
> go to devs and say: "this is how we would like the whole application to
> look". You have to take one small part and convince them that it would be
> important to change this one, because it would better this and that.


that is way the page that you and I have cited are separated into small
sections.  we do have to look at it as a hole kinda or else there will be
bits and peaces that look good and others that don't mach. when working on
them though yes you need to say "this part need changing next. here is how
it should look and work. can you do it."


> Even inside our team: even if Citrus is a good idea (which I'm not
> convinced about, but this is off-topic now), there could be better solutions
> for each element.


and Im sure that can be up for debate when we come across something that
people have a problem with. but at the same time it can not be messed with
too much or things will be inconsistent and not look or feel right.  I have
some problems with it too, I can not think of it right now but I do, I have
changed his mind on things too. so there is room for change with his design.


> This discussion sounds the same as the (thankfully dead) ribbon/not ribbon
> one. Because it's not a matter of changing the whole interface (that's the
> mistake Microsoft did, but that's according to theirs, not ours, model of
> business), it's a matter of enhancing small parts at each time.


small parts must be changed at a time, but the entire thing must be be
changed.


> That leads to the question, what do we want from LibreOffice, often raised
> (Christoph mentions that again from the Paris conference -- miss the link
> now, sorry). We should discuss that instead of Citrus/Ribbon/any ready-magic
> solution.


I don't know what Christoph mentioned, but why should we not discuss Citrus,
its the most complete and is what we have got. why should we not use it. I
liked ribbons and do not think that they are a bad idea, but I think that
Citrus is much better.

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