Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

Hi Rafael, Andrew!

Rafael, wow, a post that covers many of my thoughts ... thanks for
that :-)

Am Dienstag, den 25.10.2011, 10:41 -0200 schrieb Rafael Rocha Daud:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Em 25-10-2011 08:00, Andrew Pullins <android2772@gmail.com> escreveu:
[... Citrus Prposal ...]

> I don't think Citrus is a bad idea, on the whole. The problem with it 
> is: they have been conceived as a whole. Things should look pretty, of 
> course (my girlfriend loves LibreOffice, but my brother won't use it 
> unless it looks better -- same story everywhere), but that's not our 
> only concern: we already have a large userbase, and a way of how things 
> work in the interface. You cannot simply change this overnight. But you 
> know that.

> From the user's point-of-view, that's absolutely true.

But its also true from the point of the developers - things have to be
specified, coordinated, developed, tested, documented, ... so it needs
to be done step by step anyway.

> So, assuming you know that, this is not a matter of embracing Mirek's 
> design or not, but whether to embrace it in each part. That's why 
> there's is the UI_Elements [1] page: we should see them as parts, 
> discuss one by one and find out if it's for better to change it or not. 
> Small changes are easier to do, to manage, to get used to (from a user 
> and developer point of view), but most of all, it needs hacking, so you 
> cannot go to devs and say: "this is how we would like the whole 
> application to look". You have to take one small part and convince them 
> that it would be important to change this one, because it would better 
> this and that.

Even if they are convinced ... descriptions like Citrus are rather ideas
but something a (or in this case: many) developer(s) can start working
with.

> Even inside our team: even if Citrus is a good idea (which I'm not 
> convinced about, but this is off-topic now), there could be better 
> solutions for each element. This discussion sounds the same as the 
> (thankfully dead) ribbon/not ribbon one. Because it's not a matter of 
> changing the whole interface (that's the mistake Microsoft did, but 
> that's according to theirs, not ours, model of business), it's a matter 
> of enhancing small parts at each time.

Yep, and there are ideas / issues that can be addressed now ... but of
course an "80% stable solution concept" like Citrus helps to guide
(note: I'm also not fully sure if the whole Citrus concept fits yet, but
hopefully Mirek and his thoughts will be around).


> That leads to the question, what do we want from LibreOffice, often 
> raised (Christoph mentions that again from the Paris conference -- miss 
> the link now, sorry). We should discuss that instead of 
> Citrus/Ribbon/any ready-magic solution.

Well, in Paris we've talked about the "vision" for LibreOffice in
general. That's something I'd love to discuss (and finally decide, but
don't know how yet - how to involve all stakeholders). I've already
pinged the members of the little group how to continue. Any wishes from
your (all) side?

Back to this list. I think that parts of the UI / workflows can be
improved nevertheless ... I'll better stop here, it surely gets
redundant ;-)

Andrew, do you have any special area of interest you'd like to
contribute?

Thanks Rafael!

Cheers,
Christoph




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