Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard "Command Button Layout"

"lesten people are stupid and when you get a hundred messages poping up
every
day they do not read them.  the message could say "clicking yes will destroy
your project would you like to proceed Yes No Cancel" and some will still
click yes because they are tired of having popup's."

Sure, and we're trained to do that via Windows installation prompts.  But on
the other hand, people don't think that much more just because the words
change.  People memorize a battery of words like "confirm" "okay" "accept"
and "next" -- at what point do the words we use just become unfamiliar and
annoying to the user?  We may as well color code.

"why shouldn't we try to protect the user from themselves.  I know its not
like they are going to leave because they keep messing up with our program.
 but every other program is starting to realize that this is a problem.  and
if we are going to try to change all the dialog boxes any way so that
depending on weather your on Linux, Mac, or Windows it looks the same as
every other program on that system, witch we should do to because
to reduce confusion and inconvenience. why not change them so that the user
does not make the wrong choice because they only read the buttons."

But in the end, we're not using the program, the end user is.  Short of
having a secondary dialogue that says "are you sure?" or having someone else
step in, it's very hard to guard against user error in a way that's 1)
effective and 2) unobtrusive.

"Christopher, I noticed several times that you wrote something like
> "doesn't seem ... hard to implement" where it is - in fact - hard work.
> So although I don't know if you are a developer working on LibreOffice
> (by the way, I'm not a programmer), we should ask on the dev list for
> such effort estimations."

(first, sorry if this doesn't display properly for others as quoted text--
I'm away from my normal mail client!)

I've only recently become involved at all with LibreOffice, though I've been
interested in some time.  I do a fair amount of programming myself, and
while I'm not saying that it's the easiest thing in the world (options are
sometimes called the bane of programmers-- the Pidgin dev list can be a
clear example of this), there are two reasons why I say it's not a killing
consideration.

1) The framework for moving interface elements already exists in almost
every program we use.  But in the case of displaying buttons (and I'd have
to check on this one, so I could well be wrong!), it's changing the order in
which the elements are inserted-- the backend code that actually handles
what happens when the button is pressed doesn't need to be changed.

2) One thing LibreOffice has been commended for is merging many important
fixes from the Go-oo project with LibreOffice, as well as tidying up the OOo
codebase.  On top of that, we also have a lot of talk about a major
interface overhaul.  I see significant reason to believe that while code
will be recycled, its quality will likely be audited and that if a new
interface is to be built, modularity and customization will probably play a
big part.

Hope this clears things up, sorry if it sounded presumptuous!  :)

On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Andrew Pullins <android2772@gmail.com>wrote:

> I agree with what you're saying, but I think people tend to be at least
> > somewhat more cautious in an office program and after one or two mishaps
> > with the okay button (save all before closing, anyone?) people learn.
>
>
> lesten people are stupid and when you get a hundred messages poping up
> every
> day they do not read them.  the message could say "clicking yes will
> destroy
> your project would you like to proceed Yes No Cancel" and some will still
> click yes because they are tired of having popup's.
>
>
> > We shouldn't really be trying to protect the user from themselves, and
> most
> > seem to get along fine the way it is (verbs anyway, not that I disagree
> > with
> > this).
>
>
> why shouldn't we try to protect the user from themselves.  I know its not
> like they are going to leave because they keep messing up with our program.
>  but every other program is starting to realize that this is a problem.
>  and
> if we are going to try to change all the dialog boxes any way so that
> depending on weather your on Linux, Mac, or Windows it looks the same as
> every other program on that system, witch we should do to because
> to reduce confusion and inconvenience. why not change them so that the user
> does not make the wrong choice because they only read the buttons.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Christoph Noack <christoph@dogmatux.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi Christopher, hi Nick!
> >
> > Nick, thanks for your feedback - and I don't know whether this helps or
> > not, but it is a known issue for some years now. Unfortunately, changing
> > that (in a way that it makes real sense) requires to use something
> > called "Layout Manager", so that we can switch button orders depending
> > on the platform.
> >
> > At least, I've documented that some time ago in the Design Team's "What
> > We Need" list:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Kick-Off/WhatWeNeed#LibreOffice_Technical_Basis
> > The last time I talked about that with some developers was at the Fosdem
> > in February - the work seems a bit stalled at the moment (or let's say:
> > nobody actively picked that topic).
> >
> > So if anybody wants to work on / advertise that topic - highly
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Am Freitag, den 15.07.2011, 21:06 -0400 schrieb Christopher Lee:
> > > We shouldn't forget that LibreOffice is a cross-platform program and
> > > that we may also want to consider that people will expect similar
> > > behavior from the program no matter where they're running it. On the
> > > other hand, the order of the buttons really doesn't seem like it would
> > > be hard to implement. Maybe obey system defaults and have an option to
> > > rearrange?
> >
> > Christopher, I noticed several times that you wrote something like
> > "doesn't seem ... hard to implement" where it is - in fact - hard work.
> > So although I don't know if you are a developer working on LibreOffice
> > (by the way, I'm not a programmer), we should ask on the dev list for
> > such effort estimations.
> >
> > I this recent case, it's almost no problem to change the button order
> > for one dialog - but the issue is that we do have hundreds of them
> > hard-coded.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Christoph
> >
> >
> >
> > > --
> > > Christopher Lee
> > > Executive Director
> > > Champion Debate
> > >
> > >
> > > On Friday, July 15, 2011 at 9:03 PM, nick rundy wrote:
> > >
> > > > LibreOffice presently uses a Microsoft Windows command button layout
> in
> > its Dialog windows even when installed on a Linux distribution. Linux
> > installations of LibreOffice should conform with the command button
> layout
> > that is standard with virtually all other linux applications. For
> example,
> > MS Windows displays "OK Cancel." Linux displays "Cancel OK."
> > > > I've uploaded some screenshots to illustrate what I'm describing (
> > http://imgur.com/a/Tmmn1#X7ym4). Notice how the screen shots conform
> with
> > how MS Windows lays out its command buttons instead of how Linux
> > applications display them?
> > > > MS Windows: Save Discard CancelGNU-Linux: Cancel Discard Save
> > > > MS Windows: OK Cancel Help ResetGNU-Linux: Reset Help Cancel OK
> > > > --
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-- 
Christopher Lee
Executive Director
Champion Debate Camp
Co-Captain
Thomas Jefferson Policy Debate Team

--The Gunboat Debater--

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