Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Christian Lohmaier <
lohmaier+ooofuture@googlemail.com <lohmaier%2Booofuture@googlemail.com>>wrote:

> Hi Benjamin, *,
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:17 AM, Benjamin Horst <bhorst@mac.com> wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Benjamin Horst <bhorst@mac.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 18, 2010, at 5:19 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Benjamin Horst <bhorst@mac.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > Those who have said this were envisioning far more complex sites than I
> believe you were
> > imagining. To replicate the current static site will not require a great
> deal of configuration
> > whatsoever.
>
> I know I'm repeating myself, but still the drupal site doesn't cut it.
> You canot create structured documents with headings for example.
>
> Yes, I know, this is "just a configuration setting"; but despite admin
> logins being available know, nobody took the time to add it, despite
> so many drupal people advocating it here on the list.
>
> > > > I don't think the onus is on everyone to prove to you personally that
> Drupal is best suited
> > > No, not to me personally. Me included, but not exclusively to me. So
> > > far only the ones that maintain a drupal site themselves are in favor
> > > or drupal, the users didn't really had a chance to make up their mind
> > > yet. (And those who were and tried out silverstripe, prefer
> > > silverstripe over the current drupal demo)
> >
> > I think this is not a valid comparison, unfortunately,
>
> Well, that's the only we have, and again I reiterate: That's why I
> want a usable drupal demo.
>
> > until after Keith shared full admin credentials to his demo late this
> afternoon (Tuesday).
> > At that point, several people seemed more supportive of Drupal.
>
> No, I don't think so. Not more supportive of Drupal vs Silverstripe at
> least. (no longer not taking drupal into serious consideration, that
> yes, but no switch of opinions visible in my eyes yet)
>
> > This is good, but you're not the only one who has been active this long.
> Further, new
> > contributors can also provide fresh new ideas that should be weighed on
> their merits, not
> > based on their newness to the project. Finally, at the moment, you seem
> to be shouting the
> > loudest while covering your ears to my suggestions.
>
> Now it is getting personal and unfair.
> Where have I been covering my ears to suggestions?
>
> I *begged* you to setup a drupal site to be able to compare them, and
> all what you (and other drupal folks) did was to praise the abilities,
> complain about lack of time to setup a site that fullfilss those
> *basic* requirements. You wrote above more or less that setting up a
> site like laid out in those requirements would be a piece of cake, not
> take much effort, yet I fail to see noteworthy results.
> Again: I'd never recommend a site like the drupal demo as it is now.
>
> And again I stress that it is not because I'm convinced that you
> cannot do it with drupal.
>
> You have the time to write all those mails that take a significant
> amount of time, but you didn'f find the time to turn the druapl site
> into something usable that would not suck.
>
> *you* (not you alone) are advocating drupal, *you* are the ones who
> are trying to convince me (and others) to consider drupal.
>
> So it is up to *you* to prove that drupal can do it.
>
> > > [...]
> > > It just doesn't fit the usecase of the website. (And I take the
> > > current OOo website as reference here, since I expect the organization
> > > and use to be very, very similar)
> >
> > It fits the usecase of the website very well. Please explain what you
> think is missing?
>
> Basic editing capabilities. A editor where you cannot even create
> headings is a joke.
>
> An editor that doesn't allow to create links to other pages on the
> same site is a joke.
>
> An editor that doesn't allow creation of tables is a joke.
>
> The list with those annoyances goes on.
>
> Are you /really/ suggesting that the demo as it is now is usable?
>
> > > What do you mean with dynamic activities?
> >
> > Allowing site members to create content, working groups, discussions and
> comments, and similar actions.
>
> How would silverstripe lack that?
>
> > Would you buy the first car or house that you saw? Why the first CMS?
>
> Depends. I look at the prospectus (the corresponding websites),
> doesnt' convince me. I give it a test ride (drupal demo), and it feels
> like driving a tractor. So yes, I go with the car that I first saw:
> The prospectus is clear, doesn't lie about the extras (or lack
> thereof), gives a decent driving experience and looks slick.
>
> So you would go for the tractor based on that information?
>
> > > > [...]
> > Now that Keith's demo is available, please take another look using the
> admin credentials. It surely works.
>
> works is highly subjective.
>
> Again the question: Do you think the drupal site as it is configured
> *now* works?
>
> ciao
> Christian
>
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Look Christian, I don't use email to communicate with groups of people.  I
use comments on discussion boards.   I really don't know what you mean full
quotes and frankly at this point I don't care.  Silverstripe is basically a
single engine prop plane compared to Drupal, Ecommerce sites are a nothing,
so seriously... HOW OLD ARE YOU ANYWY??? Are you like 25 and Silverstripe is
the first CMS you tried that didn't look complicated?  What do you do?

*Show me a sophisticated website based on Silverstripe, you can't because
there isn't.*

Is the Drupal demo that we setup perfect... NO.  Did it let people jump in
and use it YES.  Is Drupal proven to provide community building YES.  Is
Drupal one of the top CMS systems PERIOD YES.  Is Drupal amazingly flexible
YES.  IS configuring Drupal rocket Science NO.  Does it require intelligence
to use Drupal YES.

Right now you have a Drupal demo site, so people can do what they want, so
it looks like a Jackson Pollock painting.   Would this be your Production
system NO. You have no argument for using Silverstripe other than it does
the bare minimum of the requirements and it's so limited that you can't do
much with it beyond posting pages, so you can't screw it up.  Even you admit
that Drupal can do a lot, its obvious, proven, demonstrated, and certified
on 100k+ websites that use it.

If you guys were in this with someone that didn't know Drupal inside and
out, I'd tell you to use the stripe.  But, I'm going to help you and thats
not a small commitment.  YOu have known Silverstripe for a few weeks at
best, so lets just lay it on the table buddy...

I know virtually every aspect of Drupal from performance optimization,
module development to theming.  I AM able to quickly setup your website to
do what you need and I have years of experience with the system.  I'm
willing to donate this service to your group that would cost A LOT of
money.  I'm willing to take an active role in the startup and maintenance of
the site.  I'd like to help with whatever site you choose, but really I only
do Drupal stuff.  Do you have someone around here with years of experience
with Silverstripe?  NO Could you use one more contributor that is 100%
fluent in everything from performance to serious system customization of
your CMS - YES.

I don't use Drupal because i'm some kind of idiot, or I'm blind to other
technologies.  I looked at Silverstripe, I looked at the modules, I looked
at the showcase, and I installed it.  I really wish I could say that its
great.  Its OK, its a relatively young project and I think that it kicks the
crap out of Joomla.  But really, you're talking about having an
international group of people with a  marquee  and an important mission to
provide an alternative to MS.  It needs to grow the community, it needs to
be inclusive, and it needs to be able to build core competencies in
technologies that maximize the value of time.  You don't need to push a
relatively unproven CMS beyond it's limits.  You need to maximize the the
time spent by volunteers by learning a system that can be adapted to a lot
of different needs.  How much time do you think you will spend learning
other systems or developing modules for Silverstripe to complement it's
shortcomings?

You seem very angry and unable to come up with any positive features of
Silverstripe other than its simple and does the bare minimum of your CMS
requirements.  At first I wanted to defend Drupal against silverstripe, but
really... I don't need to defend a CMS used and loved by hundreds of
thousands of people and one that may be the largest open source project on
the planet.  I don't need to defend a CMS that I can build almost any web
based application with.  I don't need to defend one that has been proven
again and again to be the right choice for Ubuntu, The Whitehouse, The US
department of Commerce, FedEx, BestBuy, Mcdonalds, Sony, Yahoo, Google, AOL,
Digg, Sybian, Nvidia, OpenSource.com, Sourceforge, Intel, Forbes Magazine,
BBC, Linux Journal, Internet System Consortium (BIND), and hundreds of
thousands of other sites.

Anyway, I know you always come back with some snippy short sighted comment
that picks one point and uses that to justify why Drupal isn't suitable.
Please, really, Drupal does do a lot and it does it well, it's proven by the
example of lots of sites.  Come back with examples of complex community
silverstripe sites.  Come back with WHY silverstripe is a good system beyond
the fact that you could add a page to it, or it has basic functions of a
CMS.  Show me why it's so fantastic that it's literally going to take over
the enterprise CMS market.  I want to be convinced.  I want to stop using
Drupal and switch to a system that makes me more productive.  I want a
system that when I click a button on the admin screen it doesn't show a
loading screen because it's so UI heavy that it can't load in a reasonable
amount of time.










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