Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Commence of the TDF store

2011/9/5 Charles-H. Schulz <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org>

> Hello Paulo,
Hi =)


> Le Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:28:50 -0300,
> Paulo de Souza Lima <paulo.s.lima@varekai.org> a écrit :
>
> > 2011/9/4 Charles-H. Schulz <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org>
> >
> > > Le 04/09/2011 16:38, Danishka Navin a écrit :
> > > > > > > I am not talking about the TDF community but external people.
> > > > > > All right. But *who* are external people? And how can we
> > > > > > identify them? For
> > > > > > me the only fact someone is using LibreOffice is enough to put
> > > > > > him/her
> > > in.
> > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I think that anyway anyone can use the LibreOffice logo (without the
> > > subline) according to our TM policy. But I'm a bit skeptical as to
> > > how Paulo defines the people who contribute to LibreOffice and that
> > > we apparently are not aware of. We have defined pretty much (and
> > > with some range) who are contributors to our community and our
> > > project. The notion that somehow these people should not be trusted
> > > is weird and not really friendly-sounding. What do you mean, Paulo,
> > > that whatever contributors do should be taken with mistrust?
> >
> > Excuse me. where exactly have I said that?
>
> In your last email, and actually below once again :-) At least that's
> how I understand it.

What exactly are you understanding? I didn't get your point.


> > My point is exactly the
> > opposite. Please, read my other message on this issue. By the way, I
> > don't think we can point exactly who are LibreOffice contributors and
> > who aren't. We have no tools to do it.
>
> I think we do. We have a Membership Committee for that.

No, we don't. There's a lot of people contributing to LibreOffice than those
who have submited their profiles to MC. Assuming contributors are only TDF
members is not the best way to treat this issue. Only in Brazilian
community, I can tell you that there's at least about 3 times more people
contributing than the submited/accepted TDF members. You would be excluding,
for example, Tom Davies from the community as well, and all we know he is
contributing a lot to LibreOffice.


> > > So yes, we're talking about stores, not about anyone selling a
> > > T-shirt.
> >
> > Hummm. I thought we were talking about *our* stores, not *any* store.
>
> The decision about whether we set up our own store (meaning our own
> e-commerce infrastructure) or we'd work with established merchant sites
> is something we need to discuss and that is of course not made at this
> point.

Indeed.


> > > In fact, anyone can sell a t-shirt with the LibreOffice logo
> > > without the TDF subline: I don't think it helps TDF, and I think it
> > > does anything but covering the cost of T-shirt production and
> > > whatever profit you want to make out of it.
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure what exactly this means. So, correct me if I'm wrong:
> > Anyone is able buy some blank t-shirts, print LibreOffice logo on
> > (without the TDF subline) and sell them.
>
> Yes, welcome to Free Software :-)

I'm in this world much more time than you could imagine. =)


> >  But those people can't have
> > any profit, neither to cover costs promoting LibreOffice, like
> > travels, hotels, folders, subscriptions to events, etc.
>
>
> Wait. This is a completely different topic. When people work together to
> attend an event, be part of the team of the LibreOffice project there
> should be a NGO, locally or regionally that should be able to reimburse
> them. The way it reimburse them is because it collects money and some
> of that money may come from selling t-shirts. This is a very old,
> traditional way to work in FOSS communities and I don't see why that
> would change.

No, it isn't. You have a centralized thinking, where everything should be
controlled by an NGO. Other people have different thinking where the
community should have more freedom to act. There are, at least, two
different views, and none are the "right one", in my view.


> > Despite of
> > that, some TDF SC members can ask for reimbursement for the same
> > thing, when in a TDF mission, that comes directly from the money that
> > those people, you're saying they can't use LibreOffice community
> > brand for profit, gave to TDF.
>
> And the very same thing happens and is happening all over the world, as
> we speak, in various regional NGOs working to support LibreOffice. I
> don't see any problem with that.

I do see a lot of problems with that. We have no regional NGO and no
intentions to create one, since we were told that TDF would be the right
place for such decisions, some months ago. Now you are telling us we should
go back to our previous condition. Many people have concerns about local
NGOs because the problems we had here in the past. But that's another topic.
I don't think I should be reimbursed for any activity I do to promote
LibreOffice. I do it for love and fun. But it would be great if I could help
to pay my costs producing and selling LibreOffice stuff in my lectures. I
don't see any problem with that.


> > Don't get me wrong, but I think there's something strange in that
> > line of thinking. One thing is profit for itself. Another one is
> > profit for using it in Libreoffice promotion efforts.
>
> Yes, you're right.
>
> > And that's the
> > point I mean with *trust*: TDF should trust people will use the money
> > for promoting LibreOffice.
>
> Trust is one thing (in fact my lines above should send you a clear
> message about the fact that we trust people) but coordination,
> representation, and a minimum of resources pooling is necessary. A
> community is not only about selling T-shirts, it's also about
> development. If you have no developers, or logo designers, I don't know
> what you'll put on your T-shirts in the end...


Nobody here is thinking about selling t-shirts. T-shirts selling is just an
example. I'm thinking in creating ways for people to sustain their
activities supporting LibreOffice. You say a formal organization should
controll those activities. I say people, who already contributes to
Libreoffice, are adults enough to use the community trademark with care, so
they don't need a NGO controlling what they do. I'm sure that any abuse will
be issued to the SC or the local mailing lists as soon it is detected.
Please let's go back to the central topic. I'm talking about freedom people
should have to act in order to promote LibreOffice. The point is: there are
two LibreOffice trademarks.

The TDF sublined trademark that is for TDF use only. No question about the
TDF trademark. This issue seems to be very clear to me.

The community trademark that is supposed to be used by the community,
without hard restrictions. And some discussion about "profit" arose on this
point. I think TDF should not be discussing if someone will have profit or
not making and selling some stuff with that trademark. We have no ways to
controll if people are doing what they declare to do, but the information
that comes from the community. The majority of people I know who would be
interested in make some use of this trademark are somehow involved with
LibreOffice. They ARE community members already, despite the fact they don't
have their names on the TDF members web page. I don't know a single person
who would abuse LibreOffice trademark for personal advantages. All of them
are working to promote LibreOffice. So, I don't see any problem in allowing
them to have some profit with that, since it will not be used in large
scales, nor for private companies, at least at this point, when we are
trying to enforce this trademark to the market. Any kind of abuse, like the
use of the mark by a private company without permission, or the use for
large scale commerce, will be quickly detected and reported, because people
who buys those stuff are involved with FLOSS, and news runs fast in this
environment.


> > > But I would also see disadvantages as clearly saying
> > > that we support anyone using our logo: otherwise why would we have
> > > any TM policy (and why would we have a foundation anyway?)?
> >
> > Question is not if TDF supports those people, but if those people
> > support TDF and LibreOffice.
>
> and that is the line, right there, where I feel there's mistrust. TDF
> *makes* LibreOffice.


No, the community makes LibreOffice and TDF should *represent* the community
(Next Decade Manifesto). You are mixing TDF and the community. No one in the
community are TDF "employees", as long as I know. I'm a contributor to
LibreOffice community and I accept TDF as representative, *for now*. If TDF
deviates from the stated in the manifesto, I'll rethink my position.


> So if people have no confidence in LibreOffice or
> TDF they will stop using the software.


I don't think they would stop using software once there are very few
alternatives. But they would stop contributing to LibreOffice community
certainly, because forking the project is not an option. That's why many
people see Apache OpenOffice in good looking. People don't like to put their
eggs in one basket, only. =)


> But implying there's a
> confidence issue between users at large and the project itself is
> -again- something I don't understand (clearly, I don't see any trust
> problem, why should people not trust TDF is something I don't see).


Despite of that, there's a lot of people who have concerns about TDF, some
inside the community, some outside the community. That's what those people
you're saying are not part of the community are doing: easing those concerns
among people and promoting LibreOffice, even if they are not TDF members.


> > The simple fact of using a t-shirt is
> > marketing, so it is a marketing effort and supports TDF. Personally,
> > I only use t-shirts from people I identify myself with them. I never
> > would use a t-shirt from Microsoft, would you?
>
> I wouldn't and I don't. But I also wear T-shirts of Debian, and it so
> happens that I am not a Debian user (was, years ago). I'm not calling
> myself a member of the Debian community because I have a Debian
> T-shirt.


But actually you are helping to promote Debian. =) I don't use Debian. I use
Ubuntu. But I do participate of a local Debian discussion list and I have
many friends who use Debian. I do feel somehow part of Debian community as
well. Nobody told me I'm not, at least for now. =)
Being part of a community is not a question of being "subscribed" to a
website. It's a question of identifying yourself with the values of that
community. Meritocracy will define how much a community member you are.
That's simple =)


> > LibreOffice brand is
> > not widely known, except in IT or FOSS environment. Those people
> > already know/use Libreoffice. They are not our main marketing target,
> > in my view. The "outsiders" are.
>
> You are right again, and I see -others do, I think- value in spreading
> the word about LibreOffice. But Danishka's question is different. He
> asks about an official TDF/Libo online store.

No. He was asking about how to garantee that people using Libreoffice
trademark will give part of their profits to TDF. My answer was about the
use of the community mark. I think this issue about the TDF sublined mark is
already well defined: only allowing the use through some sort of legal
agreement between TDF and the interested part. This will require TDF become
a legalized organization.


> > So, giving people the freedom to use the community brand without any
> > hard restrictions about profit can spread the knowledge of the mark.
> > In parallel to it, a permanent campaign asking for people who sell
> > LibreOffice marketing stuff to contribute with part of their profit
> > to TDF.
> >
> > People have some kind of attraction for "official" stuff. So, we could
> > provide "official" t-shirts, "official" coffe cups, "official"
> > whatever, using the brand with the TDF subline.
>
> yes, that was the main point of the discussion.

Finally, we agree in something =D.


> > Those stuff should be
> > available only in TDF stores, or in authorized resellers, who should
> > pay for that, and no one should be able to produce and sell that
> > items without TDF express permission. In that case I do agree the
> > brand (with the TDF subline) should be regulated.
>
> +1
> (what are we arguing on again?) :-)

Nothing at all. =)


> Best,
> Charles.
Regards

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador
http://www.pasl.net.br
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

"For people to achieve peace in their relationships, spiritual peace and the
peace among people, it's necessary, earlier, to win the internal battle
between virtues and defects" - Talal Husseini - Acropolitan Philosopher

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