Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Commence of the TDF store

Hello Paulo,

Le Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:28:50 -0300,
Paulo de Souza Lima <paulo.s.lima@varekai.org> a écrit :

> 2011/9/4 Charles-H. Schulz <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org>
>
> > Le 04/09/2011 16:38, Danishka Navin a écrit :
> > > > > > I am not talking about the TDF community but external people.
> > > > > All right. But *who* are external people? And how can we
> > > > > identify them? For
> > > > > me the only fact someone is using LibreOffice is enough to put
> > > > > him/her
> > in.
> > > > >
> >
> >
> > I think that anyway anyone can use the LibreOffice logo (without the
> > subline) according to our TM policy. But I'm a bit skeptical as to
> > how Paulo defines the people who contribute to LibreOffice and that
> > we apparently are not aware of. We have defined pretty much (and
> > with some range) who are contributors to our community and our
> > project. The notion that somehow these people should not be trusted
> > is weird and not really friendly-sounding. What do you mean, Paulo,
> > that whatever contributors do should be taken with mistrust?
>
> Excuse me. where exactly have I said that? 

In your last email, and actually below once again :-) At least that's
how I understand it. 

> My point is exactly the
> opposite. Please, read my other message on this issue. By the way, I
> don't think we can point exactly who are LibreOffice contributors and
> who aren't. We have no tools to do it.

I think we do. We have a Membership Committee for that. 

> > So yes, we're talking about stores, not about anyone selling a
> > T-shirt.
>
> Hummm. I thought we were talking about *our* stores, not *any* store.

The decision about whether we set up our own store (meaning our own
e-commerce infrastructure) or we'd work with established merchant sites
is something we need to discuss and that is of course not made at this
point. 

> > In fact, anyone can sell a t-shirt with the LibreOffice logo
> > without the TDF subline: I don't think it helps TDF, and I think it
> > does anything but covering the cost of T-shirt production and
> > whatever profit you want to make out of it.
>
>
> I'm not sure what exactly this means. So, correct me if I'm wrong:
> Anyone is able buy some blank t-shirts, print LibreOffice logo on
> (without the TDF subline) and sell them.

Yes, welcome to Free Software :-)


>  But those people can't have
> any profit, neither to cover costs promoting LibreOffice, like
> travels, hotels, folders, subscriptions to events, etc.


Wait. This is a completely different topic. When people work together to
attend an event, be part of the team of the LibreOffice project there
should be a NGO, locally or regionally that should be able to reimburse
them. The way it reimburse them is because it collects money and some
of that money may come from selling t-shirts. This is a very old,
traditional way to work in FOSS communities and I don't see why that
would change. 

> Despite of
> that, some TDF SC members can ask for reimbursement for the same
> thing, when in a TDF mission, that comes directly from the money that
> those people, you're saying they can't use LibreOffice community
> brand for profit, gave to TDF.

And the very same thing happens and is happening all over the world, as
we speak, in various regional NGOs working to support LibreOffice. I
don't see any problem with that. 

> Don't get me wrong, but I think there's something strange in that
> line of thinking. One thing is profit for itself. Another one is
> profit for using it in Libreoffice promotion efforts.

Yes, you're right. 

> And that's the
> point I mean with *trust*: TDF should trust people will use the money
> for promoting LibreOffice.

Trust is one thing (in fact my lines above should send you a clear
message about the fact that we trust people) but coordination,
representation, and a minimum of resources pooling is necessary. A
community is not only about selling T-shirts, it's also about
development. If you have no developers, or logo designers, I don't know
what you'll put on your T-shirts in the end...


> > But I would also see disadvantages as clearly saying
> > that we support anyone using our logo: otherwise why would we have
> > any TM policy (and why would we have a foundation anyway?)?
>
> Question is not if TDF supports those people, but if those people
> support TDF and LibreOffice. 

and that is the line, right there, where I feel there's mistrust. TDF
*makes* LibreOffice. So if people have no confidence in LibreOffice or
TDF they will stop using the software. But implying there's a
confidence issue between users at large and the project itself is
-again- something I don't understand (clearly, I don't see any trust
problem, why should people not trust TDF is something I don't see). 

> The simple fact of using a t-shirt is
> marketing, so it is a marketing effort and supports TDF. Personally,
> I only use t-shirts from people I identify myself with them. I never
> would use a t-shirt from Microsoft, would you?

I wouldn't and I don't. But I also wear T-shirts of Debian, and it so
happens that I am not a Debian user (was, years ago). I'm not calling
myself a member of the Debian community because I have a Debian
T-shirt. 


> LibreOffice brand is
> not widely known, except in IT or FOSS environment. Those people
> already know/use Libreoffice. They are not our main marketing target,
> in my view. The "outsiders" are.

You are right again, and I see -others do, I think- value in spreading
the word about LibreOffice. But Danishka's question is different. He
asks about an official TDF/Libo online store. 

> So, giving people the freedom to use the community brand without any
> hard restrictions about profit can spread the knowledge of the mark.
> In parallel to it, a permanent campaign asking for people who sell
> LibreOffice marketing stuff to contribute with part of their profit
> to TDF.
>
> People have some kind of attraction for "official" stuff. So, we could
> provide "official" t-shirts, "official" coffe cups, "official"
> whatever, using the brand with the TDF subline.

yes, that was the main point of the discussion.


> Those stuff should be
> available only in TDF stores, or in authorized resellers, who should
> pay for that, and no one should be able to produce and sell that
> items without TDF express permission. In that case I do agree the
> brand (with the TDF subline) should be regulated.

+1
(what are we arguing on again?) :-)

Best,
Charles. 

> > Best,
> Cheers.
>
>
> > Charles.



-- 
Charles-H. Schulz
Membre du Comité exécutif
The Document Foundation.

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