Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

Hi Michael, *;

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Michael Bauer <fios@akerbeltz.org> wrote:
> 10/03/2013 13:10, sgrìobh Christian Lohmaier:
>
> > You're making things up here. On all systems, LO will default to the
> > system's (Operating System's) language if that corresponding language
> > is installed for LibreOffice.
> > If you want a different one, go to Tools|Options → Languages and pick
> > the language.
> > Same procedure on every OS.
> [...]
> way I have to on MacOS) but it's still a tortuted process. And I'm afraid
> you're wrong when it comes to Ubuntu - there is no way I have found that I
> can choose a UI other than my OS language for LO without some hack.

Well, if we talk about LO downloads and the LO installer,etc. I assume
we're talking about LO as provided by the TDF, not by the
distribution. So I'm talking about the linux installation files as you
can download from the www.libreoffice.org website. I have no idea
whether ubuntu does some hacks to its packages that change the
language behaviour - but with vanilla packages changing the UI
langauge does work as expected (go to Tools|Options → Languages, pick
the desired language from the list of installed languages, confirm and
restart LO - done. No magic, no hacks. when you have set it to
"default", you can also change the language by setting appropriate
locale prior to launching it.

> > And you're completely missing the point that Jelle made (and that
> > exclusively applies to the Windows version):
> > The installer itself is localized and comes up with the language of the
> > OS.
>
> I think we both misread him slightly. I admit I kind of missed the bit about
> the installer itself but you missed the bit where he complains that he ends
> up installing a lot of langpacks and proofing tools he doesn't want.

Not "a lot of". Windows installer doesn't install all languages, that
would be insane. But it will always by default install the language
version that matches the version of the OS.
Also the set of proofing tools has been reduced, so that also depends
on the languages chosen.

> When have developers of any software actually asked their users (not the
> testers who tend to be tech savy) but people like my mum about what they
> think of force-locale?

You mom doesn't run Chinese version of Windows when she cannot read Chinese.

> You're making a really big assumption here that
> people even understand why it happens. I've recommended LO to lots of people
> because it's available in our language and when I get back to them at some
> point and ask how they're getting on, they tell me they stopped using it
> because it came up in English and they couldn't change the language in the
> settings.

That again is not the point that startet this thread, as this only
applies to non-windows, where installing a languagepack is a separate
step.

> Sure, it would be nice if users worked on improving their IT skills but the
> reality is, they don't on the whole when it comes to anything but *using*
> the software. Unless something is very obvious, they won't figure it. And
> suggesting they install the Microsoft AppLocale utility falls under "wishful
> thinking". Most users don't know what a locale is.

See above. This doesn't apply to most users. This applies to users
using a version of the Operating system in a language they cannot
read.
I certainly don't think this is a common situation, and that you can
expect from those people involved to encounter the same kind of
problem with a lot of different software packages, not just
LibreOffice. And with those to an extend where they cannot switch the
language in the program itself, but where it is fixed to the OS
locale, thus using such a locale-switching tool is absolutely
necessary.

You're hijacking the thread with your rant agains the split of
language packs, while this one is about only using the OS-locale in
the Windows-installer.
To me these are two completely different problems, after all the
languages are all included in the windows installer, so your point
does not apply.

And regarding your problem that people have to manually pick the
language when the OS is not localized to the desired language: That
again cannot be helped. But when you're using a "minority" Language,
then my personal feel is that such problems are familiar to you, and
that you choose "custom setup" by reflex already.

> Force-locale is the worst l10n related "feature" since the invention of
> ASCII. It panders to big languages which have the good fortune of having
> localized OS and removes control over one of the few features that users
> actually commonly do want to change from the users.

There is no forcing of locale involed, just the selection of the
language that is installed when you just hit "continue" differs. And
that is a good thing, as you cannot install all languages, since that
would waste tons of space, and even more so since that won't help
either. If the OS is not in the desired language, then LO cannot
determine it automatically and you will have to go to the options
anyway.

> And I do feel a bit like Don Quixote and his
> windmills most of the time ;)

Probably. Maybe I just don't get the real problem you got.

While I perfectly understand your rant against the separate
languagepacks for linux and Mac - again: This thread is about
something completely different. And when it comes to the windows
installer, I guess I simply disagree with your view on it.

> How about a challenge? How about everyone who things force-locale and the
> current way of choosing a UI language ask a relative over the age of 50 to
> install LO in Gaelic. Without help...

Well - Windows installer comes up English (or whatever language
windows is in), and I assume people to read the on-sceen text even
when they are 50 or older and using a computer.
If they are using linux, I even more so demand that they read
instructions before blindly typing commands (or have them stick with
their distro's package manager, that - if it doesn't suck - will do
the right thing™)

ciao
Christian

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