Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

10/03/2013 13:10, sgrìobh Christian Lohmaier:
> You're making things up here. On all systems, LO will default to the
> system's (Operating System's) language if that corresponding language
> is installed for LibreOffice.
> If you want a different one, go to Tools|Options → Languages and pick
> the language.
> Same procedure on every OS.
Not really. I can go to a download page and it actually *offers* me a 
language selection in the dropdown. However, if I simply choose the 
default installation, irrespective of what language I chose, it comes up 
in English (or perhaps the default OS language, that's possible but 
equally unhelpful if your OS hasn't been localized or if you just want a 
different language). Granted, on Windows I do not have to download 
separate language packs (the way I have to on MacOS) but it's still a 
tortuted process. And I'm afraid you're wrong when it comes to Ubuntu - 
there is no way I have found that I can choose a UI other than my OS 
language for LO without some hack.

The point is, the whole process of selecting the language the user wants 
in LO is really annoying.
> And you're completely missing the point that Jelle made (and that
> exclusively applies to the Windows version):
> The installer itself is localized and comes up with the language of the OS.
I think we both misread him slightly. I admit I kind of missed the bit 
about the installer itself but you missed the bit where he complains 
that he ends up installing a lot of langpacks and proofing tools he 
doesn't want.
> I personally think that this is a great feature, and while a few
> immigrants or emmigrants will be presented with a version of the OS
> itself they don't understand, it is nothing that should be reverted.
>
> If you cannot change the regional settings of your user account, then
> those people should by now heard of
> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=13209

When have developers of any software actually asked their users (not the 
testers who tend to be tech savy) but people like my mum about what they 
think of force-locale? You're making a really big assumption here that 
people even understand why it happens. I've recommended LO to lots of 
people because it's available in our language and when I get back to 
them at some point and ask how they're getting on, they tell me they 
stopped using it because it came up in English and they couldn't change 
the language in the settings.

Sure, it would be nice if users worked on improving their IT skills but 
the reality is, they don't on the whole when it comes to anything but 
*using* the software. Unless something is very obvious, they won't 
figure it. And suggesting they install the Microsoft AppLocale utility 
falls under "wishful thinking". Most users don't know what a locale is. 
And consequently virtually none will go looking for a utility that 
changes something they're not aware of its existence. I'm not the 
measure of all things  but I've worked hard to make this easier for the 
users in my locale and I'd never heard of it.

Force-locale is the worst l10n related "feature" since the invention of 
ASCII. It panders to big languages which have the good fortune of having 
localized OS and removes control over one of the few features that users 
actually commonly do want to change from the users.

I apologize if this comes over as a rant... it's not meant to be one but 
I do feel strongly about this and I feel that a lot of l10n projects are 
making blind assumptions about UI language choices that are not in line 
with the reality on the ground. And I do feel a bit like Don Quixote and 
his windmills most of the time ;)

How about a challenge? How about everyone who things force-locale and 
the current way of choosing a UI language ask a relative over the age of 
50 to install LO in Gaelic. Without help...

If LO is to appeal to the masses, then we must consider the limitations 
of the masses, not tell them they're too dumb to figure that in order to 
change the UI language of Firefox on Linux all they have to do is go to 
the address bar, type about:config, matchOS and toggle that to FALSE, 
type general.useragent.locale and choose the ISO code. I know, Firefox 
isn't LO but it's the same AAARGH approach that will fail anyone who 
doesn't work with this stuff.

Michael

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