Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hi Charles,


(Sorry for long delay in my answer, but busy in my daily work)
Thanks for taking time to answer.

I think that I should have introduced myself, in order to better explain 
my arguments :
I'm a mechanical engineer, software engineer and teacher (in a 
professional way : I have diplomas for all of them).
I'm writing software since 1984, when I was teenager. Ok, it was only 
bad basic, on an Oric Atmos (!). Then I bought my first Mac in 1987 and 
I started to write scientific software form my mechanical studies. Then, 
finally, I could learn how to write code professionally.
Since 1992, I wrote mostly scientific software (mechanical, also for 
medical), databases, then web sites, and for last 5 years I work with 
OpenERP.
Since 1992, I listen to customer's needs and I have to translate that in 
code. And given my customer's feedback, I have some skills in "listening 
to users".
And since 1987, my goal as a dev is to write software that is really 
easy to use, so since 1987, I've done UX design.
My biggest project was a mechanical software for the leading european 
aircraft manufacturer, and 12 years after, it's still a success for users.
And another example few weeks ago : the customer wanted a new 
functionality, and other dev started something complicated. I just 
discussed with people, asking few questions and then identified that 
they need not one but three answers. One answer for every context, every 
use case. Last but not least, every answer will be very easy to code !
So I'm not a newbie when I talk about UX Design or "listening to users".


(all my answers are inline)

Le 25/10/2013 17:08, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
> Hello Michel,
>
> I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too much
> about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very much).
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200,
> Michel Renon <michel.renon@free.fr> a écrit :
>  [...]
> > First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a
> > huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design
> > process :
> > - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
> > validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to
> > present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do
> > more fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part)
> > are the same.
>
> It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually
> working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case
> here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has.
>
> > - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX
> >
> > - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
> > improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread,
> > you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of
> > July, half time of GSOC.
>
> We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having enforced
> a proper whiteboards-based process.

Just compare them with one test I made :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance

status, schedule, use cases, technical context, metric, measure for each 
proposal...
All of these elements are missing in the whiteboards while they are 
minimum in any professional design process.


> Again: this is a community, you
> don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the
> blue.

Devs have created a state-of-the-art process to build LO : repositories, 
code review, validations, automatic builds, automatic tests and so on...
Why can't it be extended to the design ?

IMHO, it indicates that UX design and graphics are considered 
second-class citizen in open source projects : they are not directly 
linked to the code, they are here just to make the software look nice, 
so they are not very important.
Even Mirek (Design lead) has difficulties to have is proposals implemented !

My opinion is that the design process should be integrated in the global 
building process, just like other type of products (cars, buildings, any 
manufactured product...)



> > - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no
> > blueprint...)
>
> Yup, on the other it's called software freedom....

So LibreOffice is the *only* software/project that has no roadmap !...

it looks like a joke !
I'm sure people from MIMO and other professional users will appreciate 
that information.

> > - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX
> > brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.
> >
> >
> > > Do we
> > > - use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
> >
> > While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.
>
> Why are they broken?

no real studies : no goals, no roadmap, no use cases, no metrics...

> > However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly
> > propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a
> > graphist (not a UX designer).
>
> True. But surely we should not burn the said graphist because he's not
> an UX designer?

Please read my blog entries about this subject :
http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-3-analysis/ 
(paragraph "No UX skills/knowledge")
and
http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-libre-office-design-process-part-4-teams/

tl;dr : UX and UI (graphics) require completely different skills. It's a 
common mistake to think they can be handled by the same person ("a 
designer") : he just has to draw a screenshot, or change some icons, 
some colors (cf dribbble or devianart).
I'm not the only one to fight against that :
http://insideintercom.io/the-dribbblisation-of-design/



> If you know about an UX designer who could contribute
> his/her time here, please bring him/her here.

To be fair, I think that a professional designer won't waste time in an 
unstructured team.
Before contributing, a pro designer would ask simple questions :
- who are your users ?
- what do they expect ? what are their problems ?
- what are your goals ? your vision for future versions ?
- what is your roadmap ? your technical constraints ?

As you don't want to /can't answer most of them, I can't imagine any pro 
designer will contribute.



A designer's time is as precious as a developer's time.
so when Mickael Meeks wrote:
"Designers should lead by inspiration, good relations with
          developers, and producing designs so compelling that
          developers cannot resist taking time to implement them"

it's a clear misunderstanding of design process : designing takes a lot 
of time and energy, and the proposal would be thrown by someone that 
just says "I don't like that so I won't code it"...


Another example : the color picker.
How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or not)
Will it be implemented any day ?
You may now understand why people don't rush in to make proposals.

> > [...]
>
> >      - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by
> > every team
>
> No. It needs validation by the development team for feasibility,
> marketing; perhaps NLC if they find something problematic. But asking
> each and everyone will not work because you will never reach 100%
> agreement. And FWIW I had my share of disagreements with this team.

I was not precise enough : I meant one person of each team.
The complete process is described in my blog :
http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-5-proposal/ 
(STEP3)


> >      - only then, start to implement it
> >
> > It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical
> > product, a building...).
>
> We don't build a product, we build a community. If you want to build a
> product, please talk to MS Office, they're pretty good at that.

Uh oh... I absolutely do not agree :

TDF and Microsoft have the same kind of product : an office suite.
But they use completely different paths to create those products :
- MS is a private company, with values of Intellectual Property, closed 
software
- TDF is a foundation, with values of Free Software

What is important is :
from an user point of view, MS and TDF are similar : they both create an 
office suite. And users just want an office suite that works well and 
that fulfills theirs needs (in a professional context or not).
And the idea of "building a community" is something internal for TDF : 
it's the way TDF is internally organized to create the product.

So LibreOffice is your product. And building a community is an internal 
process.



> > The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot
> > himself in the foot :
> > - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])
>
> I don't think so, but I assume you know Henry Ford's famous sentence:
> "if I were to listen to my customers I'd still be selling horse
> carriages".

Is this sentence your only argument ?
Mine is based on 20 years of listening to users :
we *always* have to listen to users.
And we have to be very careful when analyzing what they said : sometime 
we can use directly their requests, but most of the time, we have to 
translate, reorganize, mix, split, ask other questions, analyze and 
analyze again to guess their real need and find the best solution.
But don't forget that the solution is an answer to their problem. Not 
what we want to do.
So we have to listen to them.

KDE devs now also work like that :
http://cordlandwehr.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/interaction-design-for-users/
  "When designing an application for a user, we should focus at his/her 
expectations (which are not necessarily ours)."

And another recent article :
http://www.citeworld.com/consumerization/22665/stop-listening-your-users
"Listen, observe, iterate
You shouldn't really stop listening to your users, but the point is you 
aren't always going to hear from them exactly what they need."

So, yes, it's not an easy job, but it has to be done.

> > - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5])
>
> Yes. This is a Free Software Project. Please learn more on how we work.
>
> > - incoherent UI/UX [6][7]
>
> So the process is not perfect.
>
> > - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8]
>
> I disagree.
>
> > - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1,
> > and today the start center)
>
> We - and specifically this team - have a resources problem, thankfully
> not one of talent. Are you a designer? Maybe you could help.

I already helped : see below.

> > All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the
> > facts are here :
> > http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats
>
> It is the end of the world as we know it and since Forrester says
> so it must be true. But what do you do of *all the other articles
> about LibreOffice*  :-)
>
> > As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is
> > no free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for
> > iOS/android. (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one
> > answer).
>
> Where is your contribution?

Just read my wiki page !
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr

> Seriously, I can't stand this attitude:
> negativity and nothing else. If you want to change and improve things,
> go ahead.

I done it :
- a color picker prototype :
http://mr-consultant.net/lo_prototypes/color_picker/v20121229_r14/index.html 
  *I was the first and still the only one to do something like that*
And it was ignored by the design team :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-12-29 [19:18]
This is really shocking because prototypes are foundations of design 
process.

- proposals on my wiki page
  specifically, I analyzed the state of Impress 4 :
  and made several proposals :
    - urgent : 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements
(my mistake was to ask feedback on mailing list instead of creating asap 
bug report)
    - short-term : 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/ImpressShortTermModifications
    - 
mid-term:https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/ImpressMidTermModifications

  Then I made a proposal about entrance animations for Impress.
  You can see that I followed the process I was talking in my blog
  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance
  but that proposal was refused by the design lead without any 
valid/scientific arguments :
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-May/002012.html


  Then I gave the results of some brainstorming about a future UI :
  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/LibreOfficeNewUX


- articles in my blog : a constructive critic :
http://http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/category/libreoffice/

Are all my proposals "nothing else" ?



> If you are here to complain that life is tough and that we
> don't do our jobs right, then go back to your silence, which is not a
> solution because you won't change anything that way.

Everything I created for LibreOffice is still available in the wiki, in 
the mailing list archives. You can use it, if you want, well, if devs want.
You can't tell me I done nothing.

Given your last blog entry 
(http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/10/28/forget-about-meeting-customers-expectations-innovation-comes-first/), 
its clear that we completely disagree about designing software, so it's 
better for me to stop making proposals for LibreOffice for now.
And that last blog entry sadly confirmed that LibreOffice is made by 
geeks for geeks only.

Regards,

Michel

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