Re: [libreoffice-design] Thoughts about UI

Hi Florian,

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Florian Reisinger <reisi007@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi and thanks for your answer, I will comment a lot ;)
>
> Am 03.07.2012 17:56, schrieb Mirek M.:
>
> > On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Mirek M. <mazelm@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Hi Florian,
> > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 6:45 PM, Florian Reisinger <reisi007@gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >  Hi!
> > > > I really don't know whether there had been any discussion in the past,
> > > > but I want to share 2 blogpost of mine to you. I really hope you like
> > > > that
> > > > ideas ;)
> > > >
> > > > 1. http://flosmind.wordpress.com/****2012/06/20/libreoffice-ui-****
> > > > prosposal/<http://flosmind.wordpress.com/**2012/06/20/libreoffice-ui-**prosposal/>
> > > > <http://flosmind.**wordpress.com/2012/06/20/**libreoffice-ui-prosposal/<http://flosmind.wordpress.com/2012/06/20/libreoffice-ui-prosposal/>
> > > > >
> > > > 2. 
> > > > http://flosmind.wordpress.com/****2012/07/02/libreoffice-ui-**<http://flosmind.wordpress.com/**2012/07/02/libreoffice-ui-**>
> > > > prosposal-2/<http://flosmind.**wordpress.com/2012/07/02/**
> > > > libreoffice-ui-prosposal-2/<http://flosmind.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/libreoffice-ui-prosposal-2/>
> > > > >
> > > > 3. 
> > > > http://flosmind.wordpress.com/****2012/07/02/libreoffice-ui-**<http://flosmind.wordpress.com/**2012/07/02/libreoffice-ui-**>
> > > > prosposal-2a/<http://flosmind.**wordpress.com/2012/07/02/**
> > > > libreoffice-ui-prosposal-2a/<http://flosmind.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/libreoffice-ui-prosposal-2a/>
> > > > >
> > >
> > > It's funny -- a couple of years ago, I was thinking the exact same thing:
> > > make a very flexible UI so anyone may customize the suite to their
> > > liking. Over time, though, my ideas have evolved. I realized that simply
> > > giving all the options does not make a good UI -- on the contrary, it
> > > makes
> > > the UI hard to maintain and opens up a door to various usability bugs
> > > that
> > > can arise from deep customization.

>  You are, of course, right but my thoughts (at least to me) are not a "
> giving everyone a bunch of options".
> In fact the "Ribbon UI" can be created easily, because there are only 2
> things missing:

We don't want to create a ribbon UI for a number of reasons. It has a
patent pending on it. It's bulky and non-standard. It's not touch-friendly.
And it can be aggravatingly complex and cluttered (just look at Windows 8's
Explorer).

Toolbars are touch-friendly. They're the cornerstone of most software UIs,
especially mobile UIs. They're easy to look through, easy to customize,
simple, and universal. If designed well, they can be incredibly powerful
without being bulky or cluttered.

a) larger icons [Which should not be a blocker]
>

We do have a large icons mode.

b) The icons are ought to be arranged in a specivic area freely --> Maximum
> on personalization; minimum afford ;)

We have this as well (under the "Customize..." dialog).

> The major change is, that the toolbars on the top are not displayed
> anymore, which means that there should be no toolbar anymore [if someone is
> just writing.]


I don't see how this is beneficial. Hiding commands goes against almost
every platform's HIG and also against our own design principles
(ux-discovery) [1].
Maybe I just understand you wrong.


> Most of the time a specific set of function are needed. So we have two
> approaches:
>
> a) Try to get the user to create a toolbar (toolbars) with the menus
> he/she needs

I don't really understand this sentence. By "menus", do you mean commands?
I don't think there's the need for users to create custom toolbars most of
the time. The current toolbar layout isn't great but it's far from unusable.

b) Do a "start" toolbar, which is in fact that what we currently have ;) ,
> expect the opportunity to hide that ( The hide affects all toolbars on the
> top...)

Sorry, I don't understand this either.
What do you mean by a "start" toolbar? Why would it be better than what we
currently have?


> So now you might be asking: What does he want to do with all the other
> toolbars??
>
> The answer is simple: Nothing - currently.
> If someone has the time to add a context sensitive toolbar to the Ribbon
> menu it would be nice, of course, but not a must...
>
> Hm, IMHO: If you are changing something it won't be perfect from the very
> beginning....
>
> Of course. But it should be better than the old implementation.
We don't want change for the sake of change, we want change for better
usability.

>  Generally, giving lots of options tends
> > > to result in many sub-par UI options instead of one excellent, polished
> > > option. We don't want the user to have to waste time making the UI work
> > > well for him. We want the UI to work well for him from the get-go.
> > >
> > > So, if you really want to help us improve the UI, a good start would be
> > > analyzing the weaknesses of the current UI and possible ways to improve
> > > them. We don't really have developers who would be willing to use their
> > > time for UI improvements yet,
> > Because we didn't have a fantasic idea yet ( Okay, at least I missed the
> idea...)



> > >  Sorry, I accidentally hit send prematurely.
> Never mind ;)
>
>
> > As I was saying, developers aren't very much interested in UI work right
> > now, so a grand restructuring of the whole UI is out of the question. UI
> > changes need to be incremental and well thought-out.
> Okay, I don't know weather my idea is well thought-out now ( Sometimes it
> will be our idea, but see it as a start ;)), but IMHO the changes can be
> incremental ;)
>
>    Given that LibreOffice
> > is cross-platform, it's preferable to stick to each platform's default
> > theme as closely as possible (with the exception of Windows, on which MS
> > itself tends to not follow the default theme)
> LOL, didn't know that's true
>
>  and we need to maintain a
> > menu bar at least for Ubuntu and Mac OS X.
> In my idea we still have that ( Ribbon is a option, but IMHO the UI should
> get some favourites, quick ;))


>    It's also probably best to stick
> > with toolbars, given that they're basically universal across platforms
> > (unlike ribbons or sidebars) and tend to be the only "action containers"
> > on
> > modern mobile platforms.
>
> To be honest: The UI for a mobile platform and the one for desktop users
> should be poles apart from each other... I can't see the point of Win8
> [havn't tried yet] it simply is (sorry for the sharp word) stupid to want
> someone to use something with a mouse or a fingere at the same time...


I disagree. Large click areas are beneficial for mouse users -- they make
buttons very easy to target.

Chrome, among others, has proven that a UI can be as suitable for mouse
input as for touch input.
Many websites work great with touch now. I'm writing this in GMail, which
is very touch friendly. In fact, all of Google's services are pretty
touch-friendy now.
Gnome Shell is a delight to use with the mouse, yet has large target areas
that make it work just as well with touch input.
Even LibreOffice is quite usable on a touch-screen, especially with large
icons enabled and large menu items (it's great in Gnome).

> > That said, there are a lot of things we could do better.
> +1 totally agree
>
>  The current
> > menu/toolbar/dialog system is a maze and makes it very tiring to
> > accomplish
> > certain tasks. The current organization is messy, illogical, and
> > unnecessarily complex. I'll be starting an effort to rework the Options
> > dialog -- perhaps that's something you might want to help with.
>
> Of course, but only with rough drawing with sharp ideas behind ;)
> To be honest: I can't draw at all ;)
> BTW: Link please


I haven't started it yet.
I'll get to it when I have time.

> > Be sure to check out our wiki (https://wiki.**
> > documentfoundation.org/Design<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design>
> > )
> > for ways you can help out. You can talk to us this Saturday on our IRC
> > chat: 
> > https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/Design/**Meetings<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings>
>
> Looking forward for your comments


[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles

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