Date: prev next · Thread: first prev next last
2011 Archives by date, by thread · List index

BTW I have consistently maintained that mail lists are not suitable to capture such matters.
There are easy solutions available. But SC is not interested.
So SC has to blame itself for (a) not reading the mail list. and (b) not installing proper 

Can we say that the SC did not receive enough inputs to correct these 
mistakes? We have gone through months of 18 hours per day work schedule 
and we have probably been less responsive than we should have been. But 
it should be clear that we are volunteers with a professional and a 
personal life, and we are far from being perfect.

It is the other way around: SC has not communicated its vision properly/enough.
Worse, SC has also not responded to the ongoing chatter in mail lists to set things right 

While SC was COMPLETELY absent from the battlefront, the volunteers rallied at the mail list, and 
charted the course.

Volunteers are not androids who will stay in cupboards till needed. 
They too love the excitement of creating something that was never done before. 
Why rap their knuckles for it? 

And where does the wisdom lie- In insulting/sacking such volunteers or in letting them do it?

Charles delivered the same ultimatum to the web team that he probably heard from Oracle. 
How are we "liberated"? How are we better?

And why does SC feel threatened by this voluntary enthusiasm? You should be thrilled!

Well, note that the mail lists cannot distinguish between "approved" tasks, "unautorized" tasks 
and "new proposals".
Further, within an approved project, you cannot control each and every aspect that is proposed.
This is an inherent weakness of mail list.

This is true.

Otherwise Sc can NOT keep track of which mails are within scope and which are extraneous.

This is true as well.

Even with this, SC can NOT prevent members from making new proposals.

I think that here lies one misunderstanding. New proposals are welcome, 
but they should consider the history of the project and start from here 
(therefore, if the new proposal diverges from the history, then it is 
important to get consensus before going forward).

That's the most inefficient way to work in a loosely formed organization.
It would be better create a project for each approved proposal, and run it strictly within its 
Like how any software project runs. 

Then the SC can be in control. And believe me no one will mind.

As I said somewhere: evolution and not revolution. We can, and should, 
change radically some habits, but it takes time. Sometimes, it takes twice the effort.

Correct, and it is the volunteers who are straining the most!
Let SC be supportive at least, if not leading the wave.

Either lead, be lead or get out of the way! Sleeping at the helm is not a viable option.

We were not sleeping but doing other things. Yes, this was a mistake.

Well, as the volunteers see it, SC had abandoned post. That's it.
As a marketing professional, you would appreciate that it is the public perception that matters, 
not the reality.

Now SC should be gracious and gain respect of public through generosity and magnanimity, not 
through coercion.

Look, pedigree is useful in a dog show, not here.
I think we should focus on merit of an idea, not WHO proposed it.

Of course, but sometimes experience helps. In sever years, I never 
talked about my background, and in this case it was just an example. 
Someone has to judge the merit of an idea, and experience allows to have 
at least a more informed judgement.

Sorry- If we hope to create a truly meritocratic society, we should actively mask the sources.
Stakeholder is a common word of my profession, and I understood roles as 
well. The problem is that the website strategy was to have the web as 
the entry point, and this was a mistake.

History tells us that the web is not the entry point to the project. 
This might change in the future.

In fact, almost all operations would be achieved through internet.
Recruiting volunteer is a small part of it. 
What about issue-tracker? Configuration management? Release management?
Project management? Documentation?

These activities would also be through the website.

I would dare to say that most volunteers today participate without ever 
accessing the web site. Again, this might change in the future, but I do 
not see this happening for many people.

For instance, in Italy there is a gentleman (nickname Martello, which 
means Hammer in Italian) who is generating on a monthly basis a PDF FAQ 
document based on the newsgroup discussions (over 3000 pages now) and 
has never accessed the web site.

This is just an example.

There is some misunderstanding. Website does NOT mean Drupal (or SilverStripe for that matter).
The complete software development would be done through the website.
In fact, parts of the website would be running on different software, such as bugzilla.

So, if we define stakeholders we have way more than 23, and some of them 
interacting in a weird way with the project.

For instance, the Italian association (I am the president) has a web 
site which is never going to be officially connected to TDF and/or 

Even assuming that there are some independent sites on LibO, how does that fact impact our strategy?
The users of that site are simply not OUR stakeholders.

I think that the basic mistake (and the SC should have shown the problem 
at the very beginning, having a better management of the web project) 
has been to conceive a web site which was departing from the background 
of the project without offering at first a parallel path, and later a 
convergence path.

Yes. The leaders are supposed to have a vision.
Here the web team has developed a vision on its own.
The challenge for SC is to show them a better vision, belated as it may be.

Although some of the roles can be combined, their specific needs cannot be ignored.
Each role-player would be using the website for his daily/weekly/monthly tasks.
All this work is interrelated: Someone's output is used by someone else.
So we cannot skip roles.

But you cannot force people to use the web site for their tasks, either. 
TDF brings together developers and users, and you cannot build the 
project assuming that everyone will accept to use certain tools. I use 
my own tools, and I am not going to change them because there are other 
tools available on a web site, because this would disrupt my habits and 
interphere with my professional life (as I use the same one for both).

Of course! 
Finally, users gravitate towards the better tool.
We will definitely settle this through dialog with each user class.
Thanks for trying to bring truce, but all software development guys already know what we mean.
The idea is neither new not does it need to be sold.

Again, this is a misunderstanding. The idea is completely new for the 
history of the project, and as it represents a total departure from the 
history has to be sold. We have already seen a central infrastructure 
failing completely (CollabNet) and creating a huge amount of 
frustrations and misunderstanding.

We have already seen many "this is going to be perfect for you" stories 
to believe them once more.

Why do we have this phobia about "new" things? 
Are we going to say "look here, I wouldn't try LibO if I were you. You never know with them 
newfangled things!"

What is good for others is not good for us?

And why are we afraid of using open source things that have already large user base and large 
Why don't we try it out? The web team can easily set up a pilot copy.
Why does SC not take a lead here, instead of freezing with fear? FUD working in reverse??

Even OOo community changed their Configuration Management system after 9 years.
It only shows we need to change with the times.
And fortunately, there is no "history" attached with LibO community, right?
So we have this wonderful opportunity to use the latest and most powerful tools.
SC mistakes were not to make this concept completely clear from day one, 
and to overlook the development of the web site to the point that the 
development itself has gone out of control.

Web team mistake has been to assume that any solution would have been 
accepted independently from the level of departure it was representing 
from the history of the project, and to assume that we web site could 
become the cornerstone of TDF.

When leaders abandon post, and don't respond to calls, it is not a "mistake". It is a "blunder".
And things get worse when coercion is used to control the dedicated people who tried something on 
their own.
Why doesn't SC sell the road map and milestones as a damage-control exercise?

Still, I wouldn't say the project has gone out of control.
Which specific road map or milestones are being violated/missed here?

Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
List archive:
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Privacy Policy | Impressum (Legal Info) | Copyright information: Unless otherwise specified, all text and images on this website are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License. This does not include the source code of LibreOffice, which is licensed under the Mozilla Public License (MPLv2). "LibreOffice" and "The Document Foundation" are registered trademarks of their corresponding registered owners or are in actual use as trademarks in one or more countries. Their respective logos and icons are also subject to international copyright laws. Use thereof is explained in our trademark policy.