Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Avery 8167 label printing

Ken Springer wrote:
> On 2/10/16 3:19 PM, libreoffice-ml.mbourne@spamgourmet.com wrote:
> > Ken Springer wrote:
> > > Slippage in the rollers is what I was thinking of.
> > >
> > > In my case, the error is consistent, so slippage is not problem.
> > >
> > > Telling the printer where to actually start the printing appears to be
> > > the issue.  We'll call it the top margin for convenience, but even that
> > > has it's own issues.  Since the driver is TWAIN, the brand of printer
> > > shouldn't make a difference as long as the printer manufacturer doesn't
> > > screw up the driver.
> > >
> > > Time to "expand our horizons".  (Sounds like a motivational speaker,
> > > doesn't it?   LOL)
> > >
> > > LO's built-in template, displayed on the screen, is correct.  The
> > > paper's top margin is .5" on the screen and in real life.  Positioning
> > > of the text is also correct, as displayed on the screen.
> > >
> > > Only printing is in error.
> > >
> > > Now...  Suppose you are creating X number of label designs for someone
> > > else.  They don't have LO, how to you get the labels to them?  Today, I
> > > think almost everyone's answer would be PDF.
> >
> > You may already realise, but in case not... Adobe Reader has an option
> > to "Shrink oversized pages" when printing.
>
> Every PDF reader I've toyed with has  that option for scaling.  Useful
> if you receive something that was created for 11 X 17 paper, and all you
> have is 8.5 X11.  In which case, I would expect a bit of error, not to
> mention difficulty in reading text that may be on the page.
>
> > You might not expect that to
> > do anything when printing an A4 PDF printing onto A4 paper, but it
> > actually shrinks the page slightly to allow for the non-printable
> > margins around the page. To get a 1:1 scale print you have to select
> > "Actual size". It remembers the last setting you use, so you have to
> > remember to check what's it's set to each time.
>
> I would submit, that the person who created the PDF, should have
> considered non-printable margins.  Which is why I always use margins
> that I'm sure all printers can handle, at least to the best of my
> knowledge.

I'd agree with that. Pretty much all PDFs I've seen do have a margin 
between the content and the edge of the page, and can be printed at 
actual size without problem. It's useful, as you say, if you need to 
print an 11x17 document on 8.5x11 paper (or in my case usually A3 on 
A4), but rather annoying when it's then set by default next time and 
shrinks an 8.5x11 (or A4) document slightly. I think it's the default on 
a fresh install of Adobe Reader so some people might not even notice it.

> > > Fair enough, but that doesn't work either.  If you create the PDF with
> > > the default template settings, which are correct, the resulting PDF file
> > > is also in error.  I tried it.  Same vertical offset issue.
> >
> > Is the vertical offset incorrect on screen as well as when printed? When
> > I first read that, I thought you meant it was wrong on-screen as well,
> > but from your discussion below it sounds like the PDF is displayed with
> > the correct margin, but prints with the wrong margin?
>
> If the onscreen display of the margins for 8167 labels is correct, the
> printed output is incorrect, from both LO and PDF.  If the onscreen
> margins are incorrect (to the needed amount of course), the printed
> output is correct, from both LO and PDF.
>
> > > So you change the top margin, create the PDF, and yep, labels print
> > > correctly.
> > >
> > > What's wrong with this?
> > >
> > > In the above scenario, the recipient of the PDF may/can/will look at the
> > > labels before printing them, to see if they are correct.  (If they
> > > don't, they aren't doing their job.)  Guess what?  They'll see the top
> > > margin error, more easily spotted if you have a vertical ruler option.
> > > If you send a PDF based on the correct template (the one supplied by
> > > LO), the printing will be off.  If you send a PDF based on a modified
> > > template, the visual display on the screen will be off.
> >
> > So if you have a PDF which displays on screen with the correct margin,
> > but when printed it has the wrong margin?
>
> Yep.   <G>
>
> > To get it to print with the
> > correct margin, you have to produce a PDF which displays with an
> > incorrect margin?
>
> Yep.
>
> < Assuming you're printing the PDF at actual size, that
> > would suggest the printer or its driver is in error (unless your PDF
> > reader has the same issue as LibreOffice). Once LibreOffice has created
> > a PDF, it has nothing to do with any difference between how the PDF
> > reader displays and prints it.
>
> Unless the error is embedded in the PDF.   :-)

I'm not sure that there's anything in the PDF format to specify 
different margins for display and printing, but I may be wrong. It's 
intended as a page layout format, specifying the position of each item 
so that it's displayed and printed consistently between systems. As I 
understand it, PDF doesn't even have a concept of paragraphs - they're 
just separate lines which happen to be positioned one below another.

> I hadn't considered the printer driver to be the problem, since the
> other size label does not exhibit this issue.  A .5" margin is a .5"
> margin.   :-)

That is odd... Do both templates have a 0.5" margin? If you put the same 
line of text into the first label of both templates, does it appear the 
same distance from the top of the page in both cases (when viewed on 
screen)? Or does that line appear slightly lower in one than the other 
(perhaps because there's an additional margin between the top of label 
and its content)?

Do both templates have the same horizontal margins? Perhaps something 
(maybe the printer driver) is scaling to fit the horizontal width within 
the printable area of the page; some sheets of labels go quite close to 
the edges.

It may be worth looking through all the options offered by your printer, 
in case there's anything there related to scaling, fit-to-page, scaling 
A4 to fit on letter paper (or letter on A4), etc. I'm not sure if it's 
the same on Mac, but on Windows LibreOffice those options can be found 
at File > Print > (Select printer) > Properties. If there's an option 
for borderless printing, it might be worth trying that too.

> > If you open a PDF created from a completely different application, does
> > that also print with different margins than when displayed on-screen?
>
> Yep.  Just tried Word 2011 on this Mac, same printing error.  Margin on
> the screen is correct, printed margin is not.  Which does point to the
> printer driver as the possible source of the problem.

It may be worth looking on the printer manufacturer's website to see if 
an updated driver is available.

> OT, but I noticed that the 0 point on the vertical ruler in Office is at
> the top margin, not the top of the paper.  Resulting in the ruler saying
> the letter sized paper being 10.5" long.   LOL

It probably makes sense for the horizontal ruler to start at the margin, 
since you're more likely to want to specify indents etc. relative to the 
edge of the text rather than the page (the distinction is more important 
if odd and even pages have different margins). I guess the vertical 
ruler is just consistent with that. To be honest, I don't think I use 
the vertical ruler much.

> > Can you try printing your LibreOffice document and/or PDF on a different
> > printer? Rather than wasting labels, you could of course print on plain
> > paper and hold it up against the labels ;o)
>
> Wish I could, but my inkjet does not want to feed paper.  I suspect the
> rubber feed roller has hardened on the surface and no longer grabs the
> paper.  I used it so little, it's way down on the priority list to fix.

No problem, it was just another idea to narrow down the problem. Having 
tried a different application with the same printer helps there.


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