Re: [OT]<F6>[libreoffice-users] LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Hi, Robert,

Before I get to my responses, some comments.

I'm going to write my comments in blue.  I don't know if the color will be
retained as the message goes through the system, but if it does, it will
make it easier to know which of my comments are for this submission.

As Strother Martin said in Cool Hand Luke, "What we have here is a failure
to communicate."  After reading some of your responses, if I understand your
responses correctly, that is what we have.  I wrote text that I intended to
be interpreted with meaning A, but you interpreted the text with meaning B.
Not an unusual circumstance, it happens all the time.

Which reminds me of a bit if history I watched unfold many years ago.  I had
just gotten my computer online, and this was in the days when my shiny new
1200 baud modem was state of the art.  No web, no Internet, Bulletin Board
Systems ruled the world!   :-)

I was following a thread when "Tom" posted a message.  "Dick" wrote a
reply.  When I read it, I said to myself, "S**T!  It's going to it the fan
now."  Dick wrote a reply that I knew what his meaning was, but I also knew
that Tom would likely place a different meaning on it.  And Tom did just
that.  The thread turned into a huge flame war that really wasn't necessary.

I'm not here to have a flame war, just an honest discussion.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Robert Holtzman <holtzm@cox.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 03, 2011 at 01:44:15PM -0700, Ken Springer wrote:
> > Hi  , Tom,
> >
> > Likewise, I used to encourage the use of open source software also.  And
> on
> > a personal level, I always try to find an open source program for my use.
> >
> > And my issue is not with the software itself.  Even though my impression
> is
> > the software is sometimes slightly buggier, the problems seem to be when
> > using advanced functions.  And a function I don't think the average user
> is
> > likely to attempt.
> >
> > It's user support where things fall flat on it's face.  I only have one
> > person in my family and friends who would even have a clue as to how to
> > utilize a mailing list.  It's way too cumbersome and clunky for the
> people I
> > know.  Even I had trouble figuring this one out!  LOL
>
> That's hard to believe. Mailing lists are dead simple assuming the
> ability to read with comprehension. You're only correct if your
> definition of user support is individual personal hand holding.

Reading with comprehension is not universal.  That's why IQ tests can be
structured so some groups do better than others based on history and
experience.  As such, I no longer believe in them.  You may read something
and know exactly what is being said, another person may not.

Just a little reading test for fun, what does the following phrase mean?
"Offer the bearing unto the shell."  No cheating by using Google, please.
LOL  It's a reading comprehension test solely for fun, OK?  It means
nothing.  And let me know how long it took you, or anyone else reading this,
to figure it out.

And another thing I've learned over the years, never proofread your own
writing!  LMAO


> > There are a lot of users out there, I believe, that could make use of
> open
> > source software, but these people usually don't even understand
> > directories/folders, partitioning, the very basics of using a computer.
> > When I start to talk to them about disk cleanup and defragging (Windows),
> > you should see the blank faces I encounter.  :-)
>
> Little of this is necessary to use the GUI (graphical user interface).

As I wrote in another post, any particular GUI is not universally intuitive
to everyone.


> > But surprisingly, some of them have figured out how to use forums.  Even
> > thought a lot of the forums have very nice editors, the fourms seem to be
> > lousy when it comes to instructions on how to use the editor.  The Open
> > Office forum editor has the /list commands, but how my average people
> will
> > know anything about using HTML commands?
>
> What HTML commands are needed to use an editor?

If you go to the full editor in the Open Office forums, you'll find the
following commands listed across the top of the reply window:  Code, List,
List=, Img, Table=, Aligntable=, etc.  When you click the button, the
formatting is essentially like using HTML.  I've always believed this just
to be a customized version/offshoot of HTML, if you will, and modified so it
doesn't interfere with regular HTML code.

I will admit I could be wrong about that, but I believe the observation
still stands, how is the average user supposed to easily understand how to
implement those codes?

The Survival Guide mentioned at the top of the page mentions nothing about
the formatting buttons I listed, nor anything about the meaning of the
smilies.  I've used text smilies for years, yet I still don't know what all
of the various text smilies or graphical smilies mean.

And in my personal opinion, Gmail has some of the worst graphical smilies
ever created!   LOL



> > I will own up to not looking for
> > instructions, but there's also no link to instructions that I've spotted.
>
> Not looking for instructions is your own fault.

:: big grin ::  I do believe I admitted that.

> > Searching the help info tends to be a PITA.
>
> Using a search engine is a PITA?

I will give you this point.  I went back and reread what I wrote, and I
could have worded it differently and better!  :-)  I was not referring to
search engines like Google, Ask.com, etc.  I was referring to things like
the mail archives here for Libre Office.  I don't spend a lot of time asking
for help.  So, if I want to search the last year's mail for a particular
subject, I've not figured out how to search a years' worth of messages
efficiently.

I've only been here less than a week, and searching the site for help files
just isn't a high priority at the moment.  I do have other responsibilities
that come before this.

When it comes to using something like Google, so much of it depends on
selecting the correct search terms, and I'm lousy at it.  I can search for X
for a half hour, and pretty much come up empty.  Yet I have a sister I can
ask to search for X for me, and she'll find it in 5 minutes.  Irritates the
Devil out of me!   LOL  I could be using the term "bucket", and find
nothing.  She'll use "pail", and find it.  It all depends on the search
terms chosen.


> > If you want to see a place
> > where help has really gone downhill, check Microsoft!   LOL  MS is where
> I
> > always went to seek help, especially the knowledge base link.  I can't
> find
> > that link anymore.  :-(  So now my first choices are Google and Ask.com.
>
> If M$ online support is in the toilet and you don't recommend OSS, what
> do you recommend to new users? *gasp* MAC?

Oh, come on, Robert!  :-)  Let's not get into the "my OS is better than your
OS" discussion.  It's pointless.  It's like watching a Ford fanatic argue
with a Chevy fanatic about which brand is better.  There's good and bad
about both.  But the fanatics will almost never change their mind.

As for OSS programs, they are becoming very cross platform, so I consider
the "which OS" issue to be a nonstarter.

FWIW, I noted I have XP Pro, Vista Ultimate, and OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard.
And since getting the Mac not quite 2 years ago, I now prefer the Mac.

It's a matter of personal taste, why should that be a subject for argument
or derision?

As for M$ online support, as MS was shifting from a newsreader format to the
forum style, even the MVP's were unhappy and complaining, it was taking more
of their time to read and answer the posts, and the system was buggy.  It
still seems to be buggy.  :-(  When you search, the final display will often
show the very same posts 2 or more times, and formatted on the screen as if
the messages were threaded in a newsreader format.  Once you get the search
results page, there are no links on the page to go backwards per good web
programming practice.  And the back button in the browser doesn't always
take you back to where you started.  :-(

And the Knowledge Base?  MS used to have a link to it on the opening page
for support.  I've not been able to find that link anywhere yet.  Which is
why MS support is now #3 on my priority list to get answers about MS
products, where it used to be #1.


> Again, why is using these search engines a PITA? Do you expect to find
> information without expending any effort?

It's not a question of expending effort, but a question of how much effort
you need to expend.


> > As a friend of mine observed years ago when MS stopped providing manuals
> and
> > introduced online help, "What good is online help if you can't get
> online?"
> > It's still a valid point today, as I still have not come in contact with
> a
> > computer user that was born with basic computer knowledge.   :-)
>
> Do they have access to libraries?

I will hazard a guess that you mean school libraries, public libraries,
university libraries, etc.  If that is true, the answer is "sometimes".
:-)  The libraries in my area are not equivalent to the Denver Public
Library, or the University of Colorado.  College libraries are not always
available to the public, either.  And the libraries in this area are heavily
dependent on contributions.  One library has a "Colorado Room" about the
size of the average living room, I would guess.  It's only about three
quarters full, and most of those book were donated by local people.  And as
a result, you are not allowed to check out those books through the normal
process.  For the items you are allowed to check out, you have to provide
photo ID via driver's license, and they record your driver's license number.

Hell, my house is bigger than my local library!


> > My personal preference would be a forum that's available through both a
> > browser and a newsreader.  I would actually use a newsreader, as I do not
> > have DSL nor unlimited data download, and a browser/forum combination is
> a
> > resource hog.  :-(  And like the new Verizon vs. iPhone/ATT commercials,
> I
> > do pay more for less.
> >
> > I  have LB on Mac, Vista, and XP, and will continue to use it.  But,
> until
> > help is easier to obtain online, I can't, in good conscience, recommend
> > using open source software in a general sense.  I will tell them about
> it,
> > but I will also tell them that accessing help is not always easy for the
> > average user.
>
> So, because information isn't as easy to find as *you* think it should
> be, you will discourage new users from trying OSS.

Correct.  Because in general, they are totally lost using the majority of a
computer's ability.  From your comments here, I do think you would find it
hard to understand the very simple and basic computer questions I get asked.


> > And additional observation that seems to apply to all software providers
> > these days, is they seem to assume, when it comes to their help files,
> users
> > are at the junior high level, and completely ignore the elementary level
> > users.  Not to mention many help files basically suck.  :-(  They seem to
> > tell you that you can do X, but don't bother to tell you how to do X.
>  :-)
> > No one seems to view their product through the eyes of a beginner or
> simply
> > new to their product.
>
> This isn't peculiar to OSS so why mention it, unless you just want to
> rant?

My hope is that some folks involved in software development, be it OSS or
something else, will read it, and reevaluate their approach to creating help
files.  If you choose to read it as a rant, I can live with that.  I choose
to look at it as a comment that their product is poor.  The same as if you
thought the new car you bought was a lemon and you went back to the dealer
and told him so.


> --
> Bob Holtzman
> Key ID: 8D549279
> "If you think you're getting free lunch,
>  check the price of the beer"
>
> --
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-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ken Springer

"All progress depends upon the unreasonable person."
George Bernard Shaw


Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for
cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country!"
President William McKinley


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