Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Dubious claims

Hi :)
+1
Apparently i now get counted as a supporter of Rob Weir because of the comment i posted to his 
stupid article :(   Errr, i mean the one we keep talking about despite it clearly being carefully 
engineered FUD.  

Regards from
Tom :)  





> ________________________________
> From: Jay Lozier <jslozier@gmail.com>
> To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org 
> Sent: Thursday, 8 November 2012, 14:50
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Dubious claims
>
> On 11/08/2012 06:24 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
> > Hi :)
> > I have always thought LO seriously underestimates it's number of users.  I grumbled about it 
> > years ago.  On the other hand (as people pointed out to me at the time) at least TDF only counts 
> > numbers that we can be reasonably confident of.
> >
> >
> > Tim downloads the latest release and builds up a Dvd with a couple of other OpenSource programs 
> > that people might want in an office, some dictionaries, some fonts and bits&bobs and then gives 
> > away the Dvds at local events and to people and organisations locally.  He then supplies User 
> > Support occasionally asking the lists here if they ask something weird.  As they get more 
> > knowledgeable about LO they can help each other.  The entire infrastructure he has been building 
> > up counts as 1 user.  Rob Weir would spin that into being a dubious figure and say it's just 1 
> > user being wrongly re-counted for each release.
> >
> > My boss uses LO nowadays when i send him a document but when he starts to write  document he 
> > uses MSO, similarly for the manager and my colleagues.  When they have a bunch of images such as 
> > logos that don't line-up or space out well enough or any of the many and varied problems that 
> > MSO creates they get me to fix it (if there is time) with LO.  Obviously they don't get counted 
> > as users either despite the fact that they do rely on LO.
> >
> >
> > Regards from
> > Tom :)
> Tom,
>
> Marketing and usage data for many products is often imprecise not just 
> for LO or FOSS. You raise implicitly the question: how do you define a 
> user of any software package (or product)? The definition of 
> user/consumer of a product would determine who gets counted such as 
> primary users, part-time users, and occasional users - and the 
> definition of each group is nebulous.
>
> In marketing, according to the experts I know, trends are often more 
> important than absolute numbers or arguing over precise definitions. 
> Most business analysts are more worried about market/company sales 
> trends than which group a purchaser/user belongs. Increases are 
> generally good while decreases raise concerns. Rob Weir appears to be 
> trying to argue over precise definitions of something that is inherently 
> imprecise and probably not that critical.
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Italo Vignoli <italo.vignoli@gmail.com>
> > > To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, 8 November 2012, 8:43
> > > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Dubious claims
> > >
> > > Il 08/11/2012 07:08, Alex Thurgood ha scritto:
> > >
> > > > In other words, at least for download/user stats, the answer is "no",
> > > > and for the other points Rob mentions, obtaining raw data of any
> > > > significance is for the git expert.
> > > Downloads are extracted from the mirrors, and there is a script for that. GIT is for 
> > > development related figures.
> > >
> > > > Thanks, I'll check it out, but basically what you are saying, if I
> > > > understand correctly, is that the data in question is provided in a
> > > > format which is not necessarily comparable to that which Rob has used
> > > > for AOO, and thus a certain amount of internal interpretations,
> > > > assumptions, etc are made by the LO project to arrive at its view of the
> > > > data. Are these methods/assumptions, as used by the LO project,
> > > > publicly documented on the LO wiki ?
> > > Our data are in a simple format (sum of units), while Mr Rob Weir is using complicated 
> > > interpretations to hide the truth, which is that the developers and the community are with LO 
> > > and not with Apache OO.
> > >
> > > There is no interpretation and assumptions in our data: the number of developers is a sum of 
> > > individual developers, the number of commits is a sum of single commits, and so on.
> > >
> > > The number of community members has never been calculated using wiki subscribers (in this case 
> > > we estimate around 1,000 contributors), and Mr Rob Weir has just got that number because it 
> > > could be argued.
> > >
> > > The number of community members is estimated using global + local mailing lists (many people 
> > > are subscribed only to mailing lists in their native language) + wiki contributors + developer 
> > > numbers, etcetera.
> > >
> > > So, being the method that we use a simple sum of data (and this should be easy to understand by 
> > > looking at the charts published on a monthly basis), I do not think that we have to document 
> > > such a methodology.
> > >
> > > The number of users is estimated (and the term "estimated" has always been associated to it). 
> > > Of course, any estimate might be right or might be wrong, according to the point of view.
> > >
> > > Apache OO has a higher number of downloads, of course, but I wonder - for instance - if users 
> > > who were previously used to get the software in their native language are as happy as in the 
> > > past when have discovered - after having downloaded the software - that the software is not 
> > > available in their language).
> > >
> > > By using this metrics, for instance, it would be possible to reduce Apache OO download numbers 
> > > at least by one third (but maybe even more), because you could easily cut downloads in 
> > > countries where the software is not available in the native language (version 3.4 was not even 
> > > available in British English).
> > >
> > > Bus, as we are not Mr Rob Weir - and having him as an opponent is a blessing (please ask 
> > > Microsoft) - we are not going to embark in such a useless calculation.
> > >
> > > Apache OO is available in 20 languages, and they are currently adding Danish and Norwegian (but 
> > > many major languages are missing).
> > >
> > > LibreOffice is available in over 100 languages (over 95% of the world population), and the 
> > > community is now working at Filipino/Tagalog or other minor languages.
> > >
> > > Number of languages available is a simple measure of community numbers (although estimated, 
> > > because many people involved in localization do not show up in maling lists) but of course Mr 
> > > Rob Weir is not looking for simple measures because they can be understood by everyone, and by 
> > > using obscure measurements he does try to obfuscate the reality.
> > >
> > > Best regards, Italo
> > >
> > > -- Italo Vignoli - italo.vignoli@gmail.com
> > > mob +39.348.5653829 - VoIP 5316436@messagenet.it
> > > skype italovignoli - gtalk italo.vignoli@gmail.com
> > >
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>
>
> -- 
> Jay Lozier
> jslozier@gmail.com
>
>
> -- 
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