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On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi :)
Errr, just to clarify that i think having a policy to quickly point to would be a good thing. 
Setting-up enforcement and a formal part of the grievance procedure to deal with it would be tooo 
heavy-handed and probably counter-productive.


For the part of the marketing, there is little use for enforcement, as
the offenders will be probably outside the LibreOffice project.

In the specific case of the future LibreOffice forum, it would be an
issue of the admins/coordinators to deal with. It would be up to them
to figure out how a case should be resolved. I expect that in the
extreme case of an unrepentant troll, the admins/coordinators would
consider imposing a ban. Would that be 'enforcing the code of
conduct'? I would say that taking an action such as banning an
unrepentant troll is a decision of the coordinators on a case-by-case
basis, and the decision is assisted because there was already in place
this code of conduct.
I've spent time as a coordinator in forums; if you do not deal with
the antisocial behaviour, then the forum collapses.


When i say i have a folder full, that has been built-up over 2 years on an international list 
with people from all sorts of different backgrounds and cultures.  It's not nothing and just 
because certain people haven't noticed it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  It has been just about 
manageable over the last couple of years but does keep on having to be dealt with in an 
unsatisfactory way.  Having a policy to draw to people's attention to would probably solve it.


Up to now we (LibreOffice) did not have a proportionate online
community. Compared to Linux distributions, LibreOffice is more widely
used.
If it is done right, the online communities will have millions of members.

Simos


________________________________
From: Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Leo Moons <leo.moons@telenet.be>; Simos Xenitellis <simos.lists@googlemail.com>
Cc: marketing@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Saturday, 29 September 2012, 12:47
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] "Code of Conduct"


Hi :)
Also dealing with it off-list doesn't let other witnesses know that the behaviour may not have 
been acceptable unless and until the person being rude accepts, agrees and issues an apology to 
the list.

Going off-list only usually works with someone that is normally polite and considerate but had a 
momentary aberration = perhaps a bad-hair-day, illness, stress or whatever.  At worst  the 
problem escalates and ends with one or other getting bullied or attacked.  Finishing it quickly 
on-list means there are other people around to "keep it real"

If people want examples of rude behaviour directed at people whose only crime was to be new to 
lists and new to OpenSource then i have a folder full i could pass on.
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sat, 29/9/12, Simos Xenitellis <simos.lists@googlemail.com> wrote:


From: Simos Xenitellis <simos.lists@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] "Code of Conduct"
To: "Leo Moons" <leo.moons@telenet.be>
Cc: marketing@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Saturday, 29 September, 2012, 12:29


On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Leo Moons <leo.moons@telenet.be> wrote:
Hello,


Op 25-09-12 11:01, Tom Davies schreef:

Hi :)

I was wondering if we could set-up a "Code of Conduct" along the lines of
Ubuntu's?

http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct

While we like to believe that everyone on the lists and involved with
LO is "just like us" that means very different things for different
combinations of "us".  The marketing list and documentation lists are very
polite and welcoming when someone new arrives and starts asking questions
but the Users List is often very rude and makes the new person feel very
unwelcome or even intimidated.  Can we legislate against rudeness?  Can we
even define it?  Different people obviously have very different ideas about
what is acceptable behaviour.

Regards from
Tom :)

If you see read rude comments on a list, go in discussion with the writer
off-list and post a nice reply on-list. I am pretty sure this will help
 more
then a "Code of conduct" which is very difficult to enforce.


The way I use the Code of Conduct is to refer people there when they
are rude or abusive.
They might just have a bad time or it might be a more general attitude.
If you were to take it off-list as standard practice, then it would
consume you in the long run.
It definetely does not scale, and *you* are very important to LibreOffice.

Just like you might have people asking the same technical question on
LibreOffice for the n-th time,
and you simply refer them to a Wiki page, the Code of Conduct has the
purpose of such a Wiki page on bad attitudes.
The purpose is to show the bad attitudes are not acceptable and you
refuse to enter the messy situation.

I haven't personally witnessed a case for "enforcing" the code of
conduct and that is fine.

Let's say that you witness an ad feminam attack
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) which some consider
acceptable even in the western societies. How would you deal with that
off-list?
Are ad feminam widespread? See https://lwn.net/Articles/417952/ which
discusses unacceptable behaviour at open-source conferences.

Whether someone starts volunteering their time to LibreOffice or some
other free software project is a sensitive process. In many cases
(citation needed), their decision may be dictacted on whether they
happen to encounter bad behaviour.

At the moment, the LibreOffice online community is relatively small,
and mainly English speaking.
The more LibreOffice grows, the more diverse the user-group gets. Some
things that are acceptable at one place might not be acceptable
elsewhere.
Other communities, like at
 ubuntuforums.org, have over 1.7 million
subscribed members and they have a code of conduct to help
coordinators and other volunteers.

The Ubuntu community plans to update to Code of Conduct v2,
http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2012/09/27/code-of-conduct-v2-request-for-feedback/
and there is a facility to translate the document in different languages.

I believe that it would be great
1. to adopt a Code of Conduct document (perhaps similar to the Ubuntu one)
2. have it translated by the NL teams so that they can use locally
3. refer bad behaviour to the Code of Conduct instead of engaging

As LibreOffice Marketing, you cannot engage with someone such as a
troll. You need to deflect, and the Code of Conduct is one such tool.

Simos (EL)

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