Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Light Blue for Non-printing characters

Hi Stefan, all,

> Ultimately, this will always be the implementer's decision. Not anyone's
> in this team.
So the design team should not take any decision ?
In this respect, whether our decision is based on reasoning or random 
thoughts makes no difference.
I prefer to think that the implementer has some sanity and will take 
into accounts our decisions.

> Additionally,
> 1) There is no chance get the majority of [people/users of LibreOffice/
>     ..?] to express an opinion on this matter.
The same "no chance" argument apply to all ideals.
That's not a reason to stop doing any effort in direction of these ideals.
Ultimately, I prefer to try and fail than accepting different forms of 
mediocrity.
> 2) Do we actually need everyone's opinion? Or would it make more sense
>     to find arguments one way or another?
These two goals aren't contradictory. The goal of my previous mail was 
to explain that both are needed.
We need arguments but in the end there is most of the time no unique 
logical conclusion,
and that's why we end a democratic debate by a vote in order to have the 
more representative opinions we can get.
(Maybe we don't need everyone's opinion but we should try to have more 
representative opinions.)
> Solving this is best done via Bugzilla with arguments, not via a poll
> that will only give skewed, reason-free output anyway.
I don't think Bugzilla is the best place for this because :
- you already provide a privileged solution when you open the bug report;
- it can be done by the devs before a decision has been reached.
We need to centralize the arguments in some place : the archive of the 
design mailing list does that when you look at a discussion.
We can also put them in the wiki if you prefer.
Clearly bugzilla without the design team knowing it's here is not the 
best place.

I don't see why a poll "will only give skewed, reason-free output anyway. "
Can you prove it ?
Do you mean people who vote have no reasoning abilities ?
> > When it comes to design I see a lot of contradicting arguments and most
> > of the time you end up adding "apples" with "oranges" and so on.
> Reasoning on design matters is not (yet?) as clear cut as in
> mathematics, true. Still, it should be more than people expressing
> random whims.
"Yet ?" ? You don't believe in polls but you do believe some day 
reasoning on design matters will be clear cut.
Design matters try to satisfy the needs of the people.
If one day we fully understand people needs and how to adapt to these 
needs, I hope we should be able to have efficient polls.
> > Second aim "usable to as many people as possible" : I don't see why
> > having the choice between colors makes it "not usable".
> Setting a colour that is too light makes LibreOffice less usable to a
> large class of users. That is what I meant here, mostly.
Ok, you wrote your mail as if your aims were arguments against having 
the choice of colors.
I misunderstood you.
> But, of course, you are hinting at it... options come at a price. They
> increase the complexity of the user interface, they need to be kept
> working etc.
The price is not high.
You don't look at the options in a normal workflow.
The complexity of the user interface is marginally increased in some 
part that is not often visited.
It's a good example of adding "apples" and "oranges" :
- How to quantify :
-- the gain of usability for some users ?
-- the increase of complexity of the UI ?
- How to compare both quantities ?

"They need to be kept working" : Software, cars, etc. that's quite common.
However, localized features do not need a lot of maintenance.
> The Appearance page of the LibreOffice options in particular is already
> a graveyard for far too many borderline useless options.
There is not that much options there.
I work on a business application that has 10 times more options than 
Libre Office.
I do see a problem with the options interface (it is indeed most 
noticeable on the appearance page) : The window is ridiculously small 
and you can't extend it.
That's why it feels overcrowded there. Should it be full screen and 
you'll breath again.

Best regards,
   Laurent


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