Re: Proposal by Daniel (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Budding Android UI proposal)

Hi Daniel,

before even more time passes by ... I'll try a short reply.

Am Freitag, den 18.11.2011, 23:09 +0100 schrieb Daniel Steyer: 
> Hi Christoph!
>
> And thanks for the words of welcome.
> Wow, that's a long list of thinks, that are important for a design update.
> I thought, that it is much. But as much as here?
> You write "The interaction concept has to be worked out (at least 80%)."
> What do it means? That not everything works?

Yes and no at the same time. An interaction concept - even for small
part of the UI - can be really tough. You have to consider all operating
system platforms, different kinds of users and use cases, accessibility
needs, technical constraints (currently LibO is quite limited), and also
resources devs are able to spend.

> From experience I'd say: starting to code a concept when having only 30%
of required information is hard, since you'll have endless recursion
loops (fine for prototyping, but not developing). On the other hand,
defining 100% will keep us busy for a long time ... if you will ever
achieve 100%. Trust me, I've tried it several times and failed ;-))) So,
aiming for 80% and refining with the development was something that
worked very fine.

A good example for such an approach was:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators

Please don't get me wrong, that shouldn't hinder us to start working on
something ... I'd just like to point out that ideation with mockups is a
great thing, but we need more for the development.


> I think the hardest is - but IMHO one of the most important -, to make a
> interface, which is unique, and one which has recognition. Okay, bad
> example, but Windows Office have a more or less good, but unique design.

:-)

Personally, if we can get uniqueness amongst (more important to me)
productivity, then we deliver something being awesome.

> The icons of LO looks so glad, but on every PC or Mac it looks diverent.
> Probably I imagine it still too easy. What can be a first step, I can do?
> Make more thumbnails or write changes down?

I noticed that you've got some more ideas what to work on on the German
list :-) So if you're still interested, the best thing would be to pick
one specific idea (most probably an idea a developer would be interested
in, and we can agree on) and work it out in more detail. Then, chances
are much higher to get some people involved.

Ah, and Daniel, you might be interested in some of the recent activities
with the developers:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2011-November/thread.html

Cheers,
Christoph

> 2011/11/18 Christoph Noack <christoph@dogmatux.com>
>
> > Hi Daniel!
> >
> > Did I already say "welcome to this list", I don't think so. So, "Welcome
> > to this list!" ;-)
> >
> > Am Freitag, den 18.11.2011, 21:38 +0100 schrieb Daniel Steyer:
> > [...]
> > > I see the android version from Mirek. It looks similar.
> > > I wonder, if there are plans in your team for make a new outfit for
> > desktop
> > > pcs or everything remains as it is now in general?
> >
> > That is an often raised question ... and the answer is not easy.
> >
> > First, if you look at LibreOffice 3.5 (the development version) there
> > are already some tiny but helpful / nice changes in comparison to the
> > recent OOo.
> >
> > For example:
> > http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/monthly/2011-06.html
> >
> > Or:
> > http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818
> >
> > And many more ... but of course that is not a complete new user
> > interface that greatly improves usability and visual design. Basically:
> >      * You need to know what users you have and what they want to do.
> >        Currently, a first user survey has been done ... others may
> >        follow.
> >      * The interaction concept has to be worked out (at least 80%).
> >        You'll find some ideas (like yours) on this mailing list or in
> >        other sources. But working it out, needs lots of care.
> >      * The concept needs to be tested / verified somehow (no _good_
> >        idea how to do this whilst limiting the effort).
> >      * Before implementation, you need to remove clutter from the
> >        today's LibreOffice. That's the "tiny things" I've talked
> >        about ... and there are many more.
> >      * You need to "divide" the UI concept to make it possible to
> >        handle the changes. Both for the development and for the
> >        designers.
> >      * You need developers being able to work on such large changes
> >        (and having enough resources). As you may know, many news devs
> >        currently start with smaller tasks ... it takes time to do
> >        larger changes.
> >      * Same for the visual designers ... only changing / updating all
> >        the icons will take ages, since there are thousands of them.
> >
> > So, yes, we are thinking about improvements. But from my point-of-view,
> > we'll need to address to address smaller issues first. That cleans up
> > LibreOffice and developers and "we" learn to work together. For example,
> > some ideas from your work might be picked ...
> >
> > Of course, this is an open-source project, so we are free to work on the
> > concepts right now. If they are good (understandable and manageable), I
> > think developers will pick it up.
> >
> > Well, I hope it helps more than it confuses ;-)
> >
> > > Best regards
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > P.S.: Hope you can read it ;)
> >
> > Read yes, understand - hopefully ;-)))
> >
> > Enjoy your evening!
> > Christoph
> >
> > > 2011/11/18 Christoph Noack <christoph@dogmatux.com>
> > >
> > > > Hi Daniel, hi Mirek, all!
> > > >
> > > > Hey guys, thanks for the great activity on this mailing list. I'm so
> > > > insanely sorry that I was unable to spend time for LibreOffice during
> > > > the last days. We had a very tough (but insightful) conference at
> > > > work ...
> > > >
> > > > Since I plan to start working on libreoffice-ux-advise, the only thing
> > > > I'll do today is to translate parts of Daniel's proposal (see below).
> > > > I've tried to translate via Google, but some of the thoughts did not
> > > > survive ... I hope my automatic/manual translation (done in a hurry)
> > > > will help you to get some insights.
> > > >
> > > > @ Daniel: Thanks for the proposal! And just feel free to write in
> > > > English ... we all are from different countries and "somehow" use
> > > > English. If something is unclear, everyone should feel free to ask :-)
> > > >
> > > > @ Mirek: Cool Android proposal ... great "rightsizing" of (visible)
> > > > functionality for that tiny device :-) I'll have to think about that,
> > > > since I'm unsure about the "toolbar sliding" to access further
> > > > functionality. (Does anybody remember the SO 5.x toolbar?)
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Christoph
> > > >
> > > > ###
> > > >
> > > > I am a user of the software and find the project great. However, it
> > > > bothers me now simple the UI is, when there e.g. is such a great logo.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not a real talent, but I'd like to present some thoughts - how the
> > > > design might look IMHO. I've tried to ensure that no new code
> > (features)
> > > > are needed (as far as I understand). At the moment, its rather
> > > > reordering and making better use of space and graphics. First, please
> > > > let me introduce my ideas, then I'll add a few comments.
> > > >
> > > > Looking forward for your thoughts ... but please remember these are
> > only
> > > > drafts.
> > > >
> > > > [Image: libre_text.png] --> Writer
> > > > [Image: libre_tabelle.png] --> Calc
> > > > [Image: libre_praesentation.png] --> Impress
> > > >
> > > > As you can see, I have worked on the three "main programs". What's new?
> > > > "LibreOffice" is now more present, and I used reduced versions of the
> > > > icons and rearranged those. Each program uses its own color (I have
> > used
> > > > the Primary Colours). I also tried to remove all the duplicate
> > commands:
> > > > for example on file and as an icon.
> > > >
> > > > All commands from "File" are now placed next to the title at the right
> > > > side (instead of "presentations" so there could also be the name of the
> > > > document).
> > > >
> > > > "Save" is now very visible. This is important, because it has to be
> > > > found quickly. Instead of the grayish look (when the document is
> > already
> > > > saved), it now prints the text "document is saved".
> > > >
> > > > Furthermore, all the open documents can now be found in the first row.
> > > > The current one can be closed on the black X.
> > > >
> > > > Below is a fat bar with a double down arrow. There are some secondary
> > > > commands which have been available in the first row: the commands from
> > > > "File", "Edit", etc. The user can specify whether this bar should be
> > > > shown expanded per default. But, I also greatly reduced the number of
> > > > comments - the commands in "File" and "edit" are almost gone. For
> > normal
> > > > writing, however, these are available with one click but will save
> > space
> > > > if not required.
> > > >
> > > > The last line is actually the same as before. The gray gradients are
> > > > omitted, instead everything is bright and less saturated. Only the
> > > > Primary Color for the application is used.
> > > >
> > > > The rest remains as it is. For example, all the features than can be
> > > > accessed via right click (context menu) remain. (Here, I don't
> > > > understand what Daniel wanted to say).
> > > >
> > > > I felt it was important that all icons could be enabled like today - or
> > > > somehow reached. But, the majority of users might not need such an
> > > > amount of features. Therefore, we should hide most of the functionality
> > > > after the installation. However, the design should be the same on all
> > > > platforms (Windows PCs, Macs, Linux PCs).
> > > >
> > > > What's the benefit? More user will download it, it will be a huge
> > > > difference with regard to the old OpenOffice.org. We will have some
> > > > differentiation ... and users will be really aware of it. Furthermore,
> > > > the design is more Tablet PC friendly.
> > > >
> > > > ###
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Am Freitag, den 18.11.2011, 19:33 +0100 schrieb Daniel Steyer:
> > > > > Ich bin selbst Nutzer der Software und finde das Projekt großartig.
> > > > > Allerdings stört mich das mittlerweile recht schlichte Design, wo es
> > > > > doch
> > > > > z.B. ein so tolles Logo gibt.
> > > > > Ich bin kein wirkliches Talent, habe mir aber mal ein paar Gedanken
> > > > > gemacht, wie das Design mMn aussehen könnte. Dabei habe ich darauf
> > > > > geachtet, dass keine neue Codes (soweit ich das überblicke) notwendig
> > > > > werden, es ist nur ein Umordnen und Bessernutzen des Raumes und der
> > > > > Grafiken. Nachfolgend meine Ideen, danach noch ein paar Sätze dazu.
> > > > > Bin auf
> > > > > Feedback gespannt. Sind nur Entwürfe!
> > > > >
> > > > > [image: libre_text.png]
> > > > > [image: libre_tabelle.png]
> > > > >
> > > > > [image: libre_praesentation.png]
> > > > >
> > > > > Wie man sieht, habe ich mich erstmal mit den drei "Hauptprogrammen"
> > > > > beschäftigt. Was ist neu? "LibreOffice" ist nun präsenter, außerdem
> > > > > wurde
> > > > > die Standardversion der Icons reduziert bzw. umgeordnet. Jedes
> > > > > Programm
> > > > > findet sich in seiner eigenen Farbe wieder (ich habe die Primary
> > > > > Colours
> > > > > benutzt). Wichtig war mir vor allem, dass die große Zahl an doppelt
> > > > > vorzufindenden Befehle verschwinden: z.B. über Datei und als Icon.
> > > > > Alles, was sich unter "Datei" fand, ist jetzt direkt neben dem Titel
> > > > > zu
> > > > > finden (statt "Präsentationen" könnte dort ja auch der Name des
> > > > > Dokumentes
> > > > > stehen). Sehr präsent ist jetzt "speichern". Das ist wichtig, weil es
> > > > > ja
> > > > > nicht mehr ganz links ist und trotzdem sofort gefunden werden muss.
> > > > > Statt
> > > > > dem Vergrauen, wenn es keine zu speichernden Änderungen gibt, steht
> > > > > statt
> > > > > "speichern" dann dort "gespeichert". Neben der ersten Reihe finden
> > > > > sich
> > > > > dann alle sonstigen geöffneten LibreOffice-Dokumente. Das aktuelle
> > > > > kann
> > > > > über das schwarze X geschlossen werden.
> > > > > Darunter befindet sich eine fette Leiste mit einem Doppelpfeil nach
> > > > > unten.
> > > > > Dort sind sekundäre Befehle versteht, was bisher über die erste Reihe
> > > > > mit
> > > > > "Datei", "Bearbeiten" etc. zu erreichen war. Der Nutzer kann
> > > > > einstellen, ob
> > > > > die Reihe standardmäßig ein- oder ausgeklappt erscheinen soll.
> > > > > Allerdings
> > > > > ist auch diese start reduziert, "Datei" und "Bearbeiten" entfallen
> > > > > bereits
> > > > > größtenteils. Für das normale Schreiben allerdings kann so noch mehr
> > > > > Platz
> > > > > gespart werden, und trotzdem ist es mit einem Mausklick erreichbar.
> > > > > Die letzte Zeile ist eigentlich wie bisher. Nur wird auch hier auf
> > die
> > > > > scheußlichen Grau-Farbverläufe verzichtet, alles ist angenehm hell
> > und
> > > > > nicht voll mit Farben, sondern auch hier ist die Primary Colour die
> > > > > Hauptfarbe.
> > > > > Der Strich darunter trennt noch einmal Schreibfläche von
> > Befehlsfläche
> > > > > ab.
> > > > > Darunter folgt die Schreibfläche mit etwas dunklerem Hintergrund. Der
> > > > > Rest
> > > > > bleibt.
> > > > > Auch ales Andere, was z.B. über Rechtsklick erreicht werden kann,
> > > > > bleibt.
> > > > > Nur sollte die Linie hier durchgezogen werden und auch alles grau
> > > > > durch ein
> > > > > angenehmes Weiß ersetzt werden.
> > > > > Mir war wichtig, dass weiterhin alle Icons wie bisher zugeschalten
> > > > > oder
> > > > > erreicht werden können. Allerdings braucht die breite Masse wohl kaum
> > > > > so
> > > > > eine unglaubliche Masse, darum sollte nach der Installation erstmal
> > > > > nicht
> > > > > ganz so viel für die leichte Orientierung vorzufinden sein. Wichtig
> > > > > wäre
> > > > > aber, dass das Design fest ist, sprich auf allen PCs, Macs und
> > > > > Linux-Rechnern gleich aussieht.
> > > > >
> > > > > Was hat LibreOffice davon? Mehr User laden sich das runter - es ist
> > > > > für die
> > > > > breite Masse ein riesen Unterschied gegenüber dem alten OpenOffice.
> > > > > Man
> > > > > grenzt sich davon ab. Sicher, im Hintergrund gibt es ständig neue
> > > > > Verbesserungen. Aber das wäre eine Verbesserung (hoffe, dass es eine
> > > > > ist),
> > > > > die den Usern direkt bewusst wird. Außerdem kann man sich hier
> > > > > schonmal für
> > > > > die Zukunft wappnen - das Design ist Tablet-PC-freundlich.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
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