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since I just received Kévins mail, I now took the time to browse Mireks proposals more deeply and I 
have to agree, that's just what I'd like to see :).

There are many great things in those drafts, but I especially like are the color codes and the 
command reorganization. In addition to the new handling of headers this would make LOs UI much more 
comfortable to use. 

Another aspect I'd like to see integrated are those style groups, but in my opinion a little previw 
like in Word would be nice, maybe as a popout or that the styles get applied when hovering over 
each of them. In my opinion, there should be two selections though, one for the group style used 
(e.g. "My favorite selfmade style") and one for the formatting that gets applied (e.g. Heading 1, 
Table etc.). I'm not sure but maybe you've already adresses this aspect.

I generally like the idea of focusing on actual writing and letting the formatting be automated or 
taken care of, thats why I like the ability to export them and the new template manager, which 
could maybe even being integrated with the online repository, just like the fonts.

Still, there are some issues like flickering icons when hovering over them or flshing black 
background colors when editing a text in Impress. Those aren't immediately related to this 
proposal, but I hope this could be eliminated, too. Or have these issues already been adressed in 
the current development branch?

I am personally looking forward to the command reorg, hopefully we can start working this out very 
soon :)


---- On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:07:06 +0100 Kévin PEIGNOT <> wrote ---- 

2011/10/30 Astron <>

> Hi everyone,
> a few days ago, Andrew asked for feedback on Mirek's Citrus proposal.
> So, here, I want to start a thread on what I/we like and what I/we
> don't like (about the desktop/laptop proposal), in the hope that it
> helps Mirek to refine his proposal. Please note, I am not a regular
> reader of Mirek's blog and my assumptions are based on the short
> descriptions from the wiki, so if anything on this list seems wrong to
> you, feel free to correct me.
> Here we go, structure is as on Mirek2's wiki page:
To gain time, I choosed to use the same structure.

> * Ellipsis menu:
> I like the idea and it looks much better (cleaner) than it does
> currently; for executing commands it is also more functional.
> Here's what I don't like: that you can customise your toolbar via
> drag-and-drop is not made visible at all; for users of accessibility
> solutions there seems to be no way to add or remove something.
I must say I agree with this. It's a great idea. Here a proposal of
solution : At the end of the toolbar, after the menu button, menu,
integrate an ellement with a "?" button. When a user click on it, a pop-up
appear with the tip, saying that drag'n-dropping is the way to proceed

* Page/slide handles:
> I like the idea (so much I opened a bug about it – fdo#38597). There's
> a lot to discuss, though, before this can be implemented (how it
> zooms, how it acts, etc.). Also, the proposal doesn't work at all for
> Calc (which Mirek explained, he uses so seldomly that he didn't
> include it in his proposals).
 Honestly I don't really see what is the point there. Do you have a
detailled article/page somewhere, I didn't find (I suppose I didn't
searched in the right place)

> * Continuously scrollable slides:
> Not a bad idea for the read-only mode. When editing a document,
> however, there will sometimes be the case that an image or other
> element would overlap into the next slide. What should LibO do then?
> Push the slide further below? Cut the element off in between the two
> slides? I'm sceptical.
I agree, I usually have some parts of my slides that are "out of the
slide", sometimes below, because it can be a movable picture that come half
from the bottom .... SO personally, I think it's a bad idea.

> * Add page/slide:
> I can see this being very useful in Impress and Draw, but in those
> programs, I would probably put this button into the sidebar.
> For Writer, it would be similarly useful, but we'd also need more
> complexity: it'd need at least a "Add page" and an "Add Section"
> button (unless there is any way in which we can make those two
> commands the same).
> It's just great as it is in the mock-up. It's simple, and exactly were you
need it. But I think that even if this is a great point, It should stay in
the left insert toolbar too. (some people will search it there I think)

*Float bar:
I'm absolutely in ! Then in the case the element you select take all the
screen, maybe putting the in the top of the element : On the right by
default, with a button that switch it to the left if you want it there (or
maybe by "drag and dropping" the float bar from right to left ?). I don't
have time to make a mockup, but if you want one just ask I will try during
the week-end

> * Insert bar:
> This is an idea from Ooo 1.0, I think. I'd love to know why it was
> abandoned, then, because it probably is a good idea..?
Personally I always use it, and in the left of the screen, just as in your
proposal. Too useful ! So I don't see why it has been abandonnated. Maybe
it wasn't used enough according the "clic-map".

> * Live preview:
If it means updating the whole document I think it's a bad idea (I suppose
it would need too much resource). But if it's in a "preview box", then, I'm
in. One think that I don't like today is that in the format toolbar, the
fonts are described by there name, no preview. This is the little start of
a "live preview".

> * Color-coded icons:
Good idea, I think your color scheme proposal is great. Then, I think we
should brainstorm about it : for me, Red means *"Hy, I need attention" *,
so maybe this color shouldn't be used ?

More of that, I'm not sure that this is so useful : The icons concerning
text shoud appear only when text is selected, same with images, videos...
what do you think ?

PS : Re thinking the thing : I was wrong : you can select zones with both
pictures and audio

> * Reduced standard toolbar:
I almost agree, except that I don't understand where you would put
print/export in this case ? I personnaly use these two options every time
(I export to PDF every 30 minutes because of problems I had with odt files
in the past)

> * Drop-down buttons:
No special thought. To be honest I don't know if it's a good or bad idea.

> * Sorting out commands:
> Good principles, basically, but probably too rough to be usable in
> their current form. Point two (no greyed-out buttons) is contradictory
> to the reasoning found under Reduced standard toolbar (click-able
> buttons as indicators).
> Also, this is part of the proposal is throwing (useful) conventions
> out of the window: should we really move Cut, Copy and Paste into
> completely different menus?
I think the current menus, even if not perfect are great. The Edit menu is
especially useful I think. Then, if everything in this menu can be found in
the floatbar or other places (like text menu when text is selected for
copy/cut or insert menu to paste), then, perfect !

* Getting rid of formatting dialogs :
Granted, I am biased here [1], but I don't like interacting with menus
> in this way at all, even though that's something Microsoft Office
> makes heavy use of.
> It is also a huge, huge, huge amount of work for an unclear (to me)
> benefit. Two disadvantages of relying so much on rich menus:
> → opening menus to change anything all the time should be pretty annoying
> → customising styles is made very hard (we should want people to use
> styles, so they can create more coherent looking documents more
> easily!)
Personally, just for me, I think it could be a great idea, because
formatting dialogues would still be available to edit a style. Then, a lot
of people don't use styles AT ALL, and they act directly on the text. To do
this, a formatting dialogue seems me easier : you have everything in the
same window, else you must go to the menu for every change (BOLD, Italic,
color, underline....). Except if the major parts (underline, font/color,
bold, italic....) are in the floatbar or elsewhere easily click-able

> * Combining navigator and side pane.
> I never actually use the Navigator, (I'm probably wrong, I will try to
> force me to use it to see.

> * Simplified Options:
I would say yes, only if the advanced pane is still available : Look at
Ubuntu Unity or Gnome Shell (or the whole Gnome 3) : A lot of complaints
is from people who miss options. So don't say we do the simple options
dialogue then the advanced one. I think it's better making the simplest
one, then once finished redesigning (or not) the advanced one which could
stay the actual one.

> * Rich menus:
I'm totally in. Then, about Ubuntu (I don't know for Mac OSX), look at the
sound menu : it's an indicator, but it's a menu too and it contains non
traditional menus items. So it must be possible to include them in the
global menu. I'm sure (really sure) that if we can explain Canonical the
Why and the How (maybe based on a survey), they will help us integrate this
(I'm not sure, but it seems me there is a Canonical employee who is
"dedicated" to LibreOffice integration. More of that, going to an UDS to
discuss it would help a lot.

Conclusion :

I really really really Love your proposal, it's the exact direction I would
like to see LibO go : A cleanest UI, using less vertical spacing (just for
this point I hate the Office ribbons (they look just ridiculous on a
netbook or other little screen), with just what we need the most under our
eyes, every thing else in menus, the whole thing being easily configurable
(drag and drop, advanced option dialog) to adapt to every one needs, but
with good defaults. Just what I was thinking !

I'm sorry to be so late to answer, and not to take the time to study better
your proposal (believe me, I would love to have this time), so maybe I
mis-understood some parts. DOn't hesitate to say it to me. I will do my
best to answer any other questions you could have (it should take less time
than 5 weeks, I promise :D ). I'm also sorry for my English which is, I
know, not really perfect (yet ?), I'm working on this. If you don't
understand what I say, just ask, I will try to explain my idea (maybe I
just mis-understood your proposal too, so my answer would be stupid and out
of place, I hope this won't happen too much).

Anyway, Thank you Mirek for this great proposal, which is a really great
start point. I hope we will be able to take it far !


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