Re: [libreoffice-users] compatibility with Microsoft Access

Hi :)
+1
(err = "I agree")

Just under half of that is what i tried to say in simpler English.
Being more precise sometimes makes it even more difficult to
understand but does need to be done at some point for greater
understanding.  So, thanks for that! :)

Some of the rest is 'just' extra detail about why, or in what ways,
Access is incompatible with Base.

I think most of the parts i didn't quite understand did the same thing.

I liked getting some confirmation that Base is better when using an
external back-end.  The internal zipped java back-end has serious
flaws but not just due to age and lack of updates.  The devs are
moving to a newer internal back-end.

However Csv is not standardised either!  Grrr.  Often each
implementation seems to have some different interpretation fo the
basic idea. Csv = Comma separated values so it sounds like it should
be about as simple as it could possibly get.  Sadly it hasn't worked
out that way.   Some say that Tsv (tabs separated values) is more
standardised but i'm guessing it would be quite possible for people to
develop their own differences even in that if Tsv became more widely
used.

Proprietary does mean closed but it's difficult to find a more
suitable word.  I think we can understand the word in context as being
something like "that each implementation is often different from other
implementations and that it might not be possible to figure out how
some implementations do things".  So the word proprietary does nearly
fit and certainly makes it a LOT shorter!

Regards from
Tom :)


On 2 February 2015 at 09:31, Jaroslaw Staniek <staniek@kde.org> wrote:
> On 29 January 2015 at 16:18, Tom Davies <tomcecf@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi :)
> > Sorry to say that Access is not compatible with almost any other
> > database program.  Even down to the sql language under the surface of
> > the Queries it is different from all the rest.
> [..]
>
> Hi,
> While I sympathize with the sentiment, there are some points to be
> reminded. Disclaimer: I am maintainer of Kexi and lib Predicate.
>
> - There's no single SQL standard to which software agrees to align, no
> level of compliance; most of the reasons are related to
> legacy/historical decision, performance
>
> - There's no official subset of SQL (as in C98 in programming for
> example) of SQL that everyone tries to align to; aligning to a subset
> is accidental or a result of a common sense
>
> - For many reasons we're all using proprietary formats (does not mean
> closed) for SQL language and db storage. LO Base uses HSQL with Java
> by default (so HSQL's SQL), Kexi uses SQLite (so SQLite's SQL). Both
> apps define own metadata on top of the database, e.g. Kexi has a XML
> markup for meta-data and meta-data tables, origins of whom are in use
> of SQLite 2.8. So also SQLite's SQL is used ther. All this not
> standardized.
>
> - The above influences type definitions, quite fundamental thing. Then
> even character encoding in strings is influenced.
>
> - LO Base uses (and exposes to the user) whatever SQL dialect the
> backend uses; for the record Kexi has own dialect of SQL (KexiSQL)
> that it internally translates to backend's dialect at the very end;
> this is a behavior being a superset of that ODBC wanted to be, BTW,
> even while going this way is costly in terms of development, which is
> the cost of keeping sane control over the format; in case of Base when
> MySQL decides to deviate from the past SQL bits (for whatever reason),
> Base's "format" will be certainly affected
>
> - There's neither a "database storage" part in the ODF specs nor the
> mention of what SQL shall be used; I was involved in fixing the
> connection in ODF, and that's all what we have (last I checked)
>
> - Programming/scripting layer is super-important for desktop database
> tools such as LO Base or Kexi; there's no mention of programming
> language in ODF; everything is implementation-defined, at least as in
> MSOOXML
>
> - Speaking of programming, LO Base inherits from product decisions of
> StarOffice so uses StarBasic to mimic the VB/VBA language, object
> model and run-time, I can understand users asking for compatibility
> even if just because of that.
>
> So things are not really white-black to me. There was a room for
> coordination in, say, 2004 what I inefficiently proposed to then - the
> OpenOffice guys led by Sun. No result, Base was started based on Sun's
> technology[1]  and the tradition of copying many of MS Office design
> decisions.
>
> So for me, no surprise users are looking at "compatibility".
>
> PS: How we can improve? Pick small areas and define standards. For
> example CSV import/export specification description format. We can do
> that and more!
>
>
> [1] So deeply that they decided to use Java backend and put a db file
> in a ZIP container risking breaking ACID principles known for years,
> and removing typical efficiency of databases (in-place writes).
>
>
>
> --
> regards, Jaroslaw Staniek
>
> KDE:
> : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators
> : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org
> Calligra Suite:
> : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org
> Kexi:
> : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi
> Qt Certified Specialist:
> : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek

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