Re: [libreoffice-users] BUG: Writer seems to ignore some "\par" inRTF file

Interesting discussion. For years, I have been an RTF fan for the very 
reasons mentioned by Robert. A small word processor I use a lot, called 
Atlantis, uses RTF as its native format. I also found that nearly every word 
processor on the planet is able to read RTF files.

But, as Robert found and Tom has explained, I found that every word 
processor reads those RTF files differently. It seems that there are so many 
different ways to format an RTF file that it's difficult to find consistency 
among the various programs.

So, as Tom points out, the format never became what it could have. It's a 
rotten shame.

In terms of file sizes, I think a lot depends on how much information the 
program inserts into the various files. I wrote a 44 page paper in LO. In 
ODT format, the file is 57 KB. When I imported the file into Atlantis and 
saved it in RTF format, it ballooned to 135 KB. Again, I think this is 
because of the different ways different programs deal with RTF.

At any rate, I've given up hoping that RTF would be a "universal" file 
format, simply because there are so many different "right" ways to interpret 
RTF files. As much as possible now, I just stick with ODT and, if I know 
I'll need to load it into a different program, I'll save a plain text copy. 
Yes, I lose all my formatting, but I've never found any clean transfer of 
*any* file format between different programs. Something, somewhere, is 
always messed up, so I find it best to start with plain text and go from 
there if I have to go from, say, LO to Word or WordPerfect, or back again.

Virgil



-----Original Message----- 
From: Tom Davies
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 6:49 AM
To: robert@prino.org
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] BUG: Writer seems to ignore some "\par" 
inRTF file

Hi :)
If it's just text then why not use the txt format?

I'm not sure why your Odts are ending up so large.  Typically around 20-50Kb 
seems fairly normal for just a couple of pages.

I feel i should apologise that MS never made the Rtf format OpenSource 
rather than proprietary and hid the format's specs so that other programs 
couldn't use it until years after each new release of it and then withdrew 
development of it after they lost their court case but MS is a 3rd party 
organisation and we have no control over what they do.
Regards from
Tom :)





> ________________________________
> From: Robert Prins <robert@prino.org>
> To: Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "users@global.libreoffice.org" <users@global.libreoffice.org>
> Sent: Friday, 15 March 2013, 10:31
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] BUG: Writer seems to ignore some "\par" in 
> RTF file
>
> Tom,
>
> On 15 March 2013 09:09, Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > The Odt format is a zip container that holds an Xml file(s).  So my guess 
> > is
> > that if you can generate Xml in text-files then it should be reasonably
> > easy.
>
> You've got to be kidding...
>
> Take this line from a file (in fixed pitch font):
> === SOURCE ===
> |   72 | 1386 |   43 |   26 |  112 |   14 | FL  RG  P   CH  D   GB  LV
> NL  B   S   |
> === SOURCE ===
>
> In RTF it's simple:
> === RTF ===
> |   72 | 1386 |   43 |   26 |  112 |   14 | FL  RG  P   CH  D   GB  LV
> NL  B   S   |\par
> === RTF ===
>
> And in ODT?
>
> === ODT ===
> <text:p text:style-name="P1"><text:span text:style-name="T1">| <text:s
> text:c="2"/>72 | 1386 | <text:s text:c="2"/>43 | <text:s
> text:c="2"/>26 | <text:s/>112 | <text:s text:c="2"/>14 | FL
> <text:s/>RG <text:s/>P <text:s text:c="2"/>CH <text:s/>D <text:s
> text:c="2"/>GB <text:s/>LV <text:s/>NL <text:s/>B <text:s
> text:c="2"/>S <text:s text:c="2"/>|</text:span></text:p>
> === ODT ===
>
> Care to explain why Writer breaks up this line in umpteen parts, and
> seems to do so on all places where there are two of more spaces? What
> is wrong with spaces in XML? Why, so it seems to me, replace 2 spaces
> with a *20* character substitute of "<text:s text:c="2"/>"?
>
> Also, in this case the RTF file is just 325kb. The "content.xml" is 
> 1,152kb.
>
> Another RTF file is 2,887kb. For this one the "content.xml" is
> "merely" 8,961kb, and even stranger: Open the RTF-saved-as-ODT, add
> and insert and delete a single space at the very beginning, and save
> again, and now "content.xml" is suddenly reduced to 7,056kb. Why
> wasn't is saved like that right from the start?
>
> RTF may have drawbacks, but for simple text it's vastly easier to
> generate than the XML used in Writer. Add the fact that CPU time on
> z/OS is rather more expensive than on Windoze boxes, and the case
> against generating ODT files on z/OS is pretty strong... I'll probably
> file the problem as a bug, but I won't hold my breath for the
> solution.
>
> Robert
> --
> Robert AH Prins
> robert(a)prino(d)org
>
> > But as you point out it does generate fairly different results on 
> > different
> > machines using different OSes or / and different programs.  Then when
> > generated you have no idea how it will display on other different 
> > machines,
> > different OSes or in different programs.
> >
> > You are free to post it as a bug-report but it's an inherent problem with
> > the format itself and one that MS never fixed.  Remember that this mess 
> > of a
> > format and the vast waste of effort endure by quite a lot of people and
> > companies did land MS in court and MS lost the case.  Some companies seem 
> > to
> > have been put out of business by it's failures to be more 
> > cross-compatible.
> > So, you are not alone.
> > Regards from
> > Tom :)
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Robert Prins <robert@prino.org>
> > To: Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: "users@global.libreoffice.org" <users@global.libreoffice.org>
> > Sent: Friday, 15 March 2013, 7:04
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] BUG: Writer seems to ignore some "\par" 
> > in
> > RTF file
> >
> > Tom,
> >
> > Maybe...
> >
> > But RTF has one huge advantage, it's very easy to create on other
> > systems, as it is pure text. The "file" I posted is generate on IBM's
> > z/OS. Maybe you can tell me how I can generate an ODT file on that
> > platform?
> >
> > Robert
> > --
> > Robert AH Prins
> > robert(a)prino(d)org
> >
> >
> > On 15 March 2013 00:11, Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Hi :)
> > > MS developed Rtf making all the promises about cross-platform and
> > > cross-product compatibility that are currently being made for their ISO
> > > format.  Unfortunately they never quite lived up to those promises and 
> > > got
> > > taken to court about it and lost the case.  So they stopped developing 
> > > it
> > > and created the OOXML and got that registered as an ISO standard 
> > > instead.
> > > Now people seem to be having similar problems with the new OOXML formats
> > > that they had with the Rtf, perhaps even more problems.
> > >
> > > So, just avoid Rtf.  It always was a broken, proprietary format and even
> > > though MS have stopped doing any development of it there still hasn't 
> > > been
> > > any improvement in it's compatibility.
> > > Regards from
> > > Tom :)
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: prino <robert@prino.org>
> > > To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, 14 March 2013, 21:47
> > > Subject: [libreoffice-users] BUG: Writer seems to ignore some "\par" in
> > > RTF
> > > file
> > >
> > > If you open the following, name it "whatever.rtf"
> > >
> > > === CUT ===
> > > {\rtf1\ansi\deff0
> > > {\fonttbl
> > > {\f0\fmodern\fcharset0\fprq1 Courier New;}}
> > > \paperw16840\paperh11907\margl709\margr709\margt1418\margb567
> > > \lndscpsxn
> > > \cols2\colsx709
> > > \pard\plain
> > > \sl-140\slmult0\fs14
> > > {\b Rows\par}{
> > > \par
> > > +------+\par
> > > | Row  |\par
> > > +------+\par
> > > |    1 |\par
> > > |  60 |\par
> > > +------+\par
> > > \column
> > > \par
> > > \par
> > > +------+\par
> > > | Row  |\par
> > > +------+\par
> > > |  61 |\par
> > > |  120 |\par
> > > +------+\par
> > > \column
> > > \par
> > > \par
> > > +------+\par
> > > | Row  |\par
> > > +------+\par
> > > |  121 |\par
> > > +------+\par
> > > | Tot  |\par
> > > +------+\par
> > > }}
> > > === CUT ===
> > >
> > > in Word, it will correctly put two blank lines above the second and 
> > > third
> > > column. Open it in Writer (4.0.1.2) and there will be only *one* blank
> > > line
> > > above columns two and three.
> > >
> > > Not good!
>
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