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On 18.4.2012 13:23, Tom Davies wrote:
Hi :)
That is exactly why i wondered if Andreas' points could be worked on while leaving the existing package, Base, as it stands.
That way the database functionality could be moved forwards while leaving the kludgy mess (ok, it 
might not be a kludge from a coders pov) to get sorted 'later'.

The trees outside my window have been severely pruned back but i know that by the summer the leaves will be out in full force. The trees look a lot healthier already as they are not groaning under their own weight. Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Wed, 18/4/12, Alexander Thurgood<>  wrote:

From: Alexander Thurgood<>
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
Date: Wednesday, 18 April, 2012, 10:05

Le 17/04/12 18:14, Andreas Säger a écrit :

Hi all,

The easiest improvements in my honest opinion:
- Wipe out the .odb container all together and get back to the
configuration of database access in OOo 1. Back to external databases
with configuration data in configuration files, forms and reports in
stand-alone office documents. More speed more safety, security,
accessibility and transparency. People who do not understand how to
connect separated software tools do not understand the .odb container
neither (as we can read in all the mail merge topics).
- Remove all the half done wizards. Do not improve them. Remove! No
database developer nor interface designer needs all this stinky rubbish.
There are graphical tools to compose forms and reports within office
documents. There is SQL for all the rest, including all the things we
can not do in the current graphical interface. There are plenty of SQL
editors to produce valid SQL for various databases. SQL text can be
pasted into any database configuration.
- Add native database queries, so the current "direct SQL mode" returns
editable row sets and the (useless or even harmful) graphical query
designer can be removed as well.
- Having removed all the wizards (they are Java components) without
losing any functionality at all, extensions could substitute .odb
packages. When you open the extension, the database gets installed
_permanently_ (rather than _temporarily_ like the .odb) into the
configuration tree together with the forms and reports documents. The
database will be registered and all the tables, queries, forms and
reports are accessible form the data source window, hyperlinks and
desktop links just like it used to be in OOo 1.

Ah, nostalgia those were halcyon days ;-)

+1 (not that that means anything in our "user land".

Unfortunately, as I was told quite a while ago either on the dev-list or
IRC dev channel, or bugzilla,  "no-one wants to go back to 10 year old
technology", i.e. the LO devs are not interested in undoing what Sun it
its infinite wisdom thought would be a good idea when it "re-invented
OOo-Base", so we are stuck with what we have until someone steps up and
decides to either unravel it all or improve it - a mammoth task by
anyone's standards.



From this long and very interesting thread and some other discussions on this mailing list too, together with my own recent experiences, there is only one main conclusion to draw:

There is no real future forLibO's Base module, perhaps not for the whole LibO suite.

From a non-expert user's perspective there are in fact two versions of LibO-Base

A >a "Light-LibO-Base" => a package consisting of LibO-Base as a front-end GUI and an embedded db-engine HSQKDBv1.8. This package is (could be) suitable for up to medium complex databases and be used by 'ordinary' people (like me) who does not have own skills in programming or developing or in SQL or other languages (PHP, HTML, etc.) -- who plainly want to create a database following instructions mechanically

B > an "Advanced-LibO-Base => the LibO-Base module to be used as a front-end GUI connected to an external db-engine and that can be used by people with own knowledge in programming anddb-theories and SQL and who have a good knowledge of the whole LibO's build-up,preferable in the linux environment

The "Light-LibO-Base" will fail because it is like a car without a gear box: you can open it and start it but not use it as intended

Øthe installing procedure of Lib-O causes problems because of unclear instructions

Øthe LibO-Base module as a program is half done;even basic features does not work

Øthere is no documentation explicit for LibO-Base -- and will obviouslynot be;

Users have to rely on OpenO documentation why there is no logical reason to install LibO (ordinary new users does not know about any differences between LibO and OO -- and do not know why to seek)

Øthe LibreOffice Help is a disaster -- a user new to LibO does not get any (direct) help

Øthe embedded HSQLv1.8 is out-of-date and causes frustration and waste of time because the lack of easy to get and sufficient support

Øthe reports is a important part of the data output; there is no Report Builder explicit for LibO-Base or one that works properly

Øthese problems all together are too difficult and time wasting for a new user why he begins to look for easier ways to solve his need of a database, other than LibO-Base

Øthe BoD is not interested in investing in that part of users

The "Advanced-LibO-Base" will fail because:

Øthe Base module as a program is half done (as above) -- can be used only of that minority of users who have the skill to do their own programming to get around problems and failures

Øwho have the skill to use "real" externaldatabases (e.g. SQL)

Øthe connection LibO-Base óexternal db does not work (if not recently fixed)

Øthe BoD is not interested in investing in Base

In not so very far future -- if a total destruction is excluded - our whole world will be computerized, which means that every household must have a computer and at least the most necessary programs for communication (writing, mailing, internet) and calculating and perhaps databases. Most of these private households have to or will prefer to use freeware programs instead of commercials provided that the use is easy, free of any problems and does not require special skills.

The fact that MS is a 95% market leader has to be accepted; MS dictates the standards and it's products work well enough. The only real possibility for anyone to compete MSO is a free (low cost) and perfectly functioning product that gets a total acceptance by the children in these grass level households.

The application that these children get used to at home and in school will cause the real press on commercial programs also in business.

Considering a possible common aim to compete the commercials, it is a waste of valuable resources when open source developersoverlap or compete each others . Cooperate globally?

LibO can only hope that the BoD will review its strategy planning or change the members.

Best regards

Pertti Rönnberg

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