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My experience tells me that there is a /long term/ solution. However, it
requires a change in attitude amongst software publishers/developers.

    Anecdote:

    About 20 years ago Wordperfect was the dominant word processor on
    the market. I was going to McGill University and Wordperfect was the
    university's approved and internally supported word processor. Like
    most software publishers, the Wordperfect publisherswere not
    concerned about the UI (user Interface), and concentrated entirely
    on the functionality. The result was that UI research went screaming
    ahead while the Wordperfect UI was frozen in time.

    Finally Wordperfect simply had no choice but to upgrade it's UI. As
    the UI had been ignored for so long the upgrade was huge. All the 10
    fingered 150 word per minute typists complained that they had to
    learn an entirely new word processor. Worse, their typing speed
    slowed to a crawl. The only reason that they stuck with Wordperfect
    was because it was what the university provided, and the only word
    processor the university supported.

The point is that software publishers/developers must change their
attitude. The UI is as important a part of the software as anything
else, may be more so. Ergo, UI development MUST be continuously on going
just like functionality development. That is the ONLY way to avoid the
problems being discussed in this thread.

Having said that ...

I agree with both Quinn Heagy and webmaster for Kracked. In the current
circumstances, if a new UI is introduced that is significantly different
from the classic one, it MUST be possible change back and forth.

I do not agree with webmaster for Kracked that the classic UI must be
the default. What MUST be done is to:

    1. Allow the user to change back and forth simply and easily,
    2. Make information about how to do things in the new UI easily
    accessible, and
    (possibly the most important thing of all is)
    3. Inform the user, at install time, that:

        A. there is a new UI,
        B. that the classic UI is still available,
        C. the simple and easy way to switch back and forth,
        D. how to get information about getting things done in the new UI.

Neither do I agree with Pedro. He may have a wide screen monitor,
however, the install base of old fashioned CRTs is huge. I'd even hazard
a guess that if everyone in the world who currently has a CRT monitor
was to switch to a wide screen (cost and availability aside) the old
CRTs would make a pile tall enough that any self respecting mountaineer
would be eager to tackle. (Classic case of Jungian projection.)

Udvarias Ur
Software Quality Assurance Engineer (retired)


On 11-11-28 10:48 AM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote:

With Ubuntu 11.10, it looks like you do not have a choice to go back
to the GNOME 2.32[?] desktop like Ubuntu 11.04 did.

I just do not want us to have a menu system that is too different.  It
we can switch between classic and the new design, that would be great,
but the classic design needs to be the default.  Then there must be an
easy way to switch between menu designs.

We cannot afford to give our users a reason to dump us.  Menu redesign
is one issue that bugs users a great deal.  If they are use to finding
their options in one place and they are use to going to that place in
one way, having them relearn how to find options and where they are
located will make users not want to use LO.  We all hate when things
change.  I hate to relearn how to do the tasks I use to do one way
when it is not that way anymore.

I chose to go from Windows to Linux, so things change.  Yet, I would
not have that choice if LO changes their menu structure.  I like it
the way it is now.



On 11/28/2011 10:23 AM, Quinn Heagy wrote:

I think a good way would be to have the user able to change between a
"classic" and a "new" look.

Also, with Windows 8 - it looks pretty much the same as Windows 7 for a
normal desktop.  It has the new look for touch enabled computers, but
they
can still use the old look.

If a user needs to get some work done in a good amount of time, then
they
can use the classic look, and just mess around with the new look when
they
have free time.  They could then choose whichever look they wanted to
use.

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 10:16 AM, webmaster for Kracked Press
Productions<
webmaster@krackedpress.com>  wrote:


The big thing we need to learn from current desktop design changes,
is the
fact that if the redesigns are too radical or too much different
from what
users are use to, then it will "turn users away" from our product.

The change from MSO's old menu design to the new one is something that
caused users issues and was a concern for IT departments to be able to
handle the tech calls asking for help finding where all their
"normal menus
went to".  If LO changes too much from the "traditional" look, then
we will
have the same problem.  If there is a change in menu look and feel,
then it
needs to be a slow one.  People are dumping Ubuntu to go to Mint,
due to
Unity's change of the way their "classic" desktop was used.  IT was too
radical of a change for many users.  MS is going to have the same issue
with the way Win 8 is designed.

We must not change too much too soon.

Our users will not want to have to relearn how to use LO.  I will
not like
to relearn how to use LO.

One of our early selling points for OOo and LO over MSO 2007, was
the fact
that MSO changed the way their menus were used.  We had a more
classic menu
system that was easier to use than MSO 2007.  We were the easier
package[s]
to use.  That was what got some of my users to switch to OOo back then.
  They did not like the change that MSO had for their menus and
other look
and feel issues.

We do not want to become the same thing.  We do not want LO users go to
back to OOo because we changed the look and feel of LO where it is no
longer easy to use.




On 11/28/2011 09:35 AM, Quinn Heagy wrote:


http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/**2011/11/citrus-a-libreoffice-**
interface-for-today/<http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/citrus-a-libreoffice-interface-for-today/>

That's the post that I was talking about.

On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:26 AM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions<
webmaster@**krackedpress.com<webmaster@krackedpress.com>>   wrote:

  What is "OMGUbuntu!"?

I know that there were some code changes to make LibreOffice work
better
with the Unity desktop that Ubuntu 11.04 and 11.10 has as its default
desktop.  GNOME 3.x is moving towards the way Unity looks,
according to
what I have read, as well.

So could "Citrus" be a part of that new look and feel that Unity
desktop
and Win 8 is going to?  I hate Unity, and Win 8's desktop seems to
be a bad
idea that will be a nightmare for Windows users to relearn.

On 11/28/2011 09:03 AM, Quinn Heagy wrote:


I noticed that the heading on OMGUbuntu! was a new design idea for
LibreOffice called Citrus. It mentioned the mailing list, so I
signed up.
If anyone could give me more info on when and if this new design
is going
to be implemented, I'd be thankful.



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On 11-11-28 11:54 AM, Pedro wrote:

I think Citrus looks like a change in the right direction!

It keeps the menus on the top (thus not breaking with the past) but adding
all buttons to the sides making better use of wide screen monitors. This
design also solves the problem of where to put new toolbars: they should
always appear on the sides (like in Gimp). 

This is not comparable to the stupid Ribbon, where MS decided which buttons
the users use most and hid all others. In addition the Ribbon was so wide
that it took a large vertical space... If you never used this design failure
named Office 2010 in a netbook, then you should, just for fun lesson of what
not-to-do :)

In my opinion even the Default toolbar should move to the Right (and move
less used toolbars to the Left) where there is less travelling distance with
the cursor.

I hope this is added ASAP!

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-- 
Udvarias Ur

This letter was generated and sent from Thunderbird on Ubuntu Linux.


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