Re: Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams

On 28/01/15 01:59, Robinson Tryon wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:
> > Am I right in reading into this, that master is using American English?
> > And if so, why? Seeing as LibreOffice is, at heart, a European program
> > surely it should be using English?
>
> Like British English? RP? Let's be specific here...
I mean, English like she is spoke in ENGLAND. There's no such language
as British English, true English is the majority language for the
*southern* end of Britain, and many places elsewhere because the English
have migrated, but it really grates when furriners (I guess you're not
British, I can't tell) assume that everybody here speaks the same
language. And if you're going to incorrectly call it "British English",
then actually "English English" would be far more accurate.

Yes, language is a complex matter, but as I like to put it, "In Britain
the Saxons speak English, the Angles speak Scots, and the Scots speak
Gaelic". It's a mess, agreed, but that's no reason to make the mess even
bigger by using completely bogus descriptions.

(And by sounding off like this, I've validated your comments further
down :-)
> > What proportion of developers are native American speakers?
>
> Not that many. It would be great to see more involvement from the US,
> but I think that promoting the "this is a European Project" attitude
> can really hurt those numbers. LibreOffice is a global project: No one
> country or continent should try to claim it for itself.

No I'm not trying to claim that at all. I'm simply saying that the
cultural norms of the project are not American, and we're quite happy to
make them welcome, but I don't want to make life hard for the majority,
just to appease a minority who may - OR MAY NOT - decide to join the party.
> > Bear in mind that most English variants use English spelling, not
> > American spelling.
>
> I think the phrase "American English spelling" is clearer -- there are
> lots of languages spoken here across the pond, so the phrase "American
> spelling" is ambiguous.
>
> > At the end of the day, not enforcing en_us as a translation means that
> > the majority of us (including those of us that speak English rather than
> > American as our native language) are forced to suffer pain as the
> > foundations are messed up underneath us.
>
> Whoa there, cowboy!  (or whatever the British equivalent is) I think
> that British, American, Canadian, etc.. English are all pretty
> similar, so while I agree that we might have our little differences
> about an extra 'u' in color, or whether the big vehicle that picks up
> the trash is a Lorry or a Truck, it's not a big deal compared to the
> diff between the Englishes and French or Spanish.

I'd be careful here !!! As a European, I really think the official
language should be Spanglianese! (That is, Spanish/Portuguese/Italian).
Those three are effectively modern Latin, are with some difficulties
mutually comprehensible, and are the MAJORITY FIRST language. What would
that do to encourage the Americans in? :-)

(And I say that as a Brit. Most of my countrymen would be absolutely
horrified by the idea :-)
> > And by allowing that *minority*
> > to avoid suffering, they are enabled to cause unnecessary pain without
> > even realising what they are doing!
>
> *facepalm*
>
> I know that you're just getting some stuff off your chest, and sure, I
> get it: languages can be tough. So we get have a couple beers, find
> the vertias in the vino, and start speaking French (wait, maybe that's
> just what I do). More seriously, I'm trying to get people interested
> in LibreOffice in the US, and it's really important for us to make the
> project welcoming to users and new contributors.
>
> You want to propose some changes? Sure, great plan. But please check
> that your method of delivery doesn't paint the Americans as the
> outsiders and buffoons of your diatribe, because the reality is that
> we really don't have much going on in the US yet, and there's already
> a hesitancy to interact with what is perceived as aloof Europeans. I
> think that growth in the US has the potential to give a ton back to
> the LibreOffice community in Development, Documentation, QA, and so
> forth, but we need to go the extra mile there, not tell people that,
> before they've opened a single spreadsheet or triaged a single bug,
> they are somehow (?) "causing pain."

Look at it from the other side. You're telling us Europeans that we have
to do it the American way. It comes over far too much that the Americans
think their way is the only way and it really upsets a lot of people.
That's why so many cultures fear and hate America - they see it as a
direct threat to them. Certainly I see America as a serious threat to my
British way of life ...

I've got no problem whatsoever with welcoming Americans. What I do have
a problem with is them demanding that I become "more American", because
not only do I not want to, I absolutely positively hate the idea!
> > The rule should be simple. Any changes of meaning can be edited directly
> > in master. If it's non-native English, and poor at that such as it's
> > hard to comprehend then it can be corrected in master. If it's clear
> > comprehensible English, whether English or Strine or American or
> > International or whatever, then it's off-limits for changes to master,
> > and has to be done in Pootle or whatever as a localisation.
>
> I like the general idea, but I am concerned about the feasibility. Notes:
>
> 1)  will inconsistency of nouns (e.g. color vs. colour), inconsistency
> of grammar, etc.. within the sources in master make translation harder
> for the native-lang teams?

Why should it? English is a ployglot language. A good speaker has to be
able to understand Strine, Texas, Scouse, New Yorker, Geordie, Cannuck
etc etc. And decent written English (of whichever variant) is unlikely
to be a problem. Now if you want to throw in Pidgin that's a different
matter !! :-)

(And as a Brit, you're expecting me to understand American. What's that
saying? "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the Gander"? If you want me to
understand American, I'll demand you speak Scouse!!! :-)
> 2) What will the language be for builds w/o langpacks? Just a generic
> 'English'? (maybe we can call it "LibreOffice English" :-)

As someone else said, maybe we shouldn't have one! Or the default build
just includes en_us as standard.
> 3) Who's going to step up to maintain en_US? (I'd love to help, but
> I'm working tons of hours as it is)
The same people who are causing all the grief for everybody else by
currently translating/changing all the strings in master? Surely there's
no difference to the amount of work in translating en_us, as there is to
translating master?
> Cheers,
> --R
Cheers,
Wol