Hi Laurent,
[ top posting by design ]
And then what is the piece you bring to the impress mode toolbar analysis?
Kind regards
Sophie
Le 22 janv. 2016 20:00, "Laurent Lyaudet" <laurent.lyaudet@gmail.com
<mailto:laurent.lyaudet@gmail.com>> a écrit :
Hi,
I don't buy the argument "Go to the design hangouts if you have
something to say or else shut up".
This sounds like TyrannyOffice more than LibreOffice.
No schedule for a world project can make it possible that all the
people that want to participate can effectively participate in the
design hangouts.
Design mailing list is Libre, the design hangouts give all the
powers to a smaller set of persons.
It doesn't matter that they are benevolent and have a lot of good
will.
They must accept feedback from the mailing list and from users.
I agree that complaints from users should be polite but we must
accept the verdict when we fail to do something good.
Nobody is perfect.
I also know that feedback is unfair since people are much more
motivated to give their feedback when they are unhappy.
That's how the world works most of the time.
Detaching yourself of the imperfections of the world is part of
becoming adult
(maybe "detaching yourself" is too strong, I tried to translate
"prendre du recul".
It applies both to the people that gives the feedback and the
people that recieves the feedback).
Best regards,
Laurent
Le 22/01/2016 15:38, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :
I recall seeing those discussions in the design Hangouts
minutes. I haven't
participated in them.
<<Another example, I just read in the last design minute [1]
that a
discussion was started about migrating search&replace in
sidebar, and more
important, thinking about modifying the behavior of sidebar !
AFAIK, there was no announcement, we have no idea of any
schedule (time to
discuss, time to make proposals, time to evaluate them,
expected time of
coding...)
How can people participate without a minimum of schedule ?>>
Ok, I'll let in on a little known thing: the *Hangouts have a
defined
schedule*!!!!
And actually here's the thing:
1. people make proposals in the Hangout meetings,
2. people discuss proposals in the Hangout meetings
3. They evaluate proposals in the Hangout meetings!!!.
It's not like people are meeting in a dark basement plotting
on ways to do
UI work without informing the users.* If you want to make
proposals,
discuss proposal, evaluate them and participate in the
development then
SHOW UP IN THE DESIGN HANGOUTS MEETINGS!!!* I accompany this
mailing list
for years and since UI development picked up pace in the last
year and a
half the devs were tireless in trying to atract new people.
As for that Sidebar proposal they started discussing that in
that Hangout
meeting and it will evolve along time. The discussion about
what to do with
the Sidebar has been ongoing since it was introduced in LO. If
you don't
know that what the hell do you want?
To fill the design process with so much red tape and
impediments that the
UI is basically frozen for all eternity just because you
didn't like one
change that was done?
About a feature that is going to be re-evaluated because some
lazy people
decided to shout loud about it after the code freeze instead
of providing
feedback early enough in the multitude of opportunities they
had???
As for the rudeness of the feedback of real world users. If
they passed
that feedback to you like why didn't you or Italo *simply
filtered and
presented that feedback in a polite manner*?
Do you also feel the need to be rude to people that are
working their asses
off just because someone vented their frustration to you in a
non-polite
manner?
If you dislike the work done in they UI then show up in the
design Hangouts
and start proposing differnt things, collaborate with who does
the work,
try to influence their views positively and maybe submit your
code or
alternatives. Shouting at them for doing their work is not the
way.
On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Michel RENON
<renon@mr-consultant.net <mailto:renon@mr-consultant.net>>
wrote:
Hi,
Le 15/01/2016 19:28, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :
Michel, you can't complain that people are using links
not posted in a
tdf/libreoffice website and then talk about feedback
in a blog of
someone else. Why didn't that person provide feedback
to the design
mailing list for example?
It's not the work of the people that work in UI/UX for
LibreOffice to
dig through the Internet looking for feedback in
obscure blogs.
But that's currently the state of design documents : they
are all stored
in personal gdocs, gdrive, blogs...
That's why I asked to upload all design documents in the
official tdf wiki
: it's the central and official place to find anything
related to
LibreOffice. And it oblige the uploader to choose a license.
It brings 2 other questions about surveys and gdocs :
- Where are stored the surveys datas ? Who own those datas ?
- What are the license of those datas ? of those documents ?
As it is related to a FOSS project, it is very important
to be clear about
license and ownership of everything used to create
LibreOffice.
Developers are very precise about anything related to
license, and I don't
understand why developers working in/with the design team
don't ask that
essential question.
As for
the tools that they prefer to use, I don't see why
they should be forced
to eat their own dogfood.
Should they try to incorporate LO as much as possible
in their workflow?
Obviously! But if it's detrimental to their
productivity then it's
better not to untill it suits them (they then can file
bugs and offer
feedback on waht needs to be changed).
No company in the world does that if there's better
alternatives out
there.
Heck, do you think development of software in Google
is done in ChromeOS
or Android? Or that they don't use Windows/MacOS/Linux
distros?
Please, don't suppose I'm so dumb...
I write software for 25 years
"eat their own dogfood" has 3 points :
- marketing : enhance confidence in the product
tell people outside the FOSS circle that LibreOffice is
really usable and
versatile
- ethical : TDF fights for open formats, open source
software, it is
logical to use tools that respect those values
- technical : if we are our first users, we'll be the
first to ask for
corrections/enhancements. The more we are uncompromising,
the better
LibreOffice will be.
People in charge of the UI/UX take into account as much
feedback as they
can and that is quite transparent. Just go check the
Hangouts minutes.
If lately the UI/UX hasn't been stable maybe it's
because it had been
"stable" (more like fossilized) for far too long.
There were even loads
of features that weren't exposed in the UI! I think
it's more than
certain that as the UI/UX becomes updated that it will
be more stated.
But in a piece of software with scheduled releases
instead of a "launch
when it's ready" model people will inevitably see
changes across the
different releases. As they do for the features that
are introduced in
each version.
As for Italo complaints, I find them very unfair since
he was really
aggressive and even issued threats when he just
complained in a really
late stage of the development process for 5.1.
Yes it was a bit aggressive, but that's the feedback of
real users in
real-world usage...
Where was his feedback
when this was discussed? Why didn't he provide his
feedback earlier?
very good question !
Can you send links of design minutes where that subject
was announced and
discussed ?
I searched in my thunderbird and found nothing
(it may be a search error in my thunderbird)
Another example, I just read in the last design minute [1]
that a
discussion was started about migrating search&replace in
sidebar, and more
important, thinking about modifying the behavior of sidebar !
AFAIK, there was no announcement, we have no idea of any
schedule (time to
discuss, time to make proposals, time to evaluate them,
expected time of
coding...)
How can people participate without a minimum of schedule ?
If
he wants to have a bigger participation in the
development then maybe he
should participate in the process earlier and not
start shouting when
there's already a hard freeze when he could've said
something before.
I think there's an issue of people not knowing how to
properly leave
their feedback.
yes, the most important way to give feedback is to
participate in hangouts.
As most of us are volunteers, it's not easy to be
available at the exact
time and day of the corresponding subject.
If design team wants to have more people sending feedback,
then it should
announce earlier what it's working on, and then send some
kind of RFC
(request for comment) on different mailing lists (why not
social networks
to have a broader audience ?)
And as I've already said, design process should be done
*very early*, and
it should be completed *before* coding starts !
Michel
[1]
http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg07585.html
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