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Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2


Hi Michel,

2013/12/13 Michel Renon <michel.renon@free.fr>

> Hi,
>
> Le 06/12/2013 19:39, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>
>> Hello Michel,
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>> Indeed. I find you quite shy in fact, and I'm serious. To me it does
>> not look like you were ignored, rather that no one knows about it.
>> Which is a problem since the start.
>>
>
>
> I wouldn't say I'm shy, I'm just polite and I don't want to waste time and
> energy in endless discussion (mail or chat). And I understood that in this
> mailing list, you have to insist or even be aggressive to explain/force
> your UX ideas while I expected professional skills and democracy, at least
> meritocracy (I really miss Christoph Noack).
>
>
>
>
>> [...]
>>>
>>
>> What would be better is that if your proposals were communicated. I've
>> never seen your name, never read any of your mails (except this thread)
>> before.
>>
>
> False !
> I wrote articles in my blog about LibreOffice design process in
> march/april 2013 and on 11/04/2013 sent an email :
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org, libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.
> freedesktop.org
> Cc: charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org, italo.vignoli@gmail.com
>
> So, you had at least one (important !) email from me.
>
> And I had only 2 answers :
> - one from Emir Yāsin SARI
> - the other from Michael Meeks :
> (short version with my words)
> - "we don't want to take care of your advises"
> - "TDF is very happy with the current design team"
>
> and also few comments directly in the blog, but nobody from the TDF.
> So, when someone as Michael Meeks closes the door to my suggestions, what
> can I expect ? I would be foolish to insist.
>
>
> So I can return your argument :
> why only 2 person wrote answers to my articles in this ml ?
> why didn't you realized at that time that I have some expertise in UX
> design ?
> why nothing has changed in the design team workflow ? and in the way devs
> and designers work together ?
>
>
> Ans same question for my suggestion to postpone the startcenter : you ask
> my reasons to do so, but I explained it in my mail, just read it !
>
>
>
> I don't read everything on the design list, but I believe that
>> if you have not engaged with the design team first, nothing will happen.
>>
>
>
> Just FYI, I started with project OOo Renaissance ! (May 2009)
> (https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%
> 9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D)
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon
>
> My complete proposal as a pdf file (37 pages, 630 Ko)
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/2/26/Proposal_impress_ui_renon3.pdf
> (it was far from being perfect because I created it in few nights, while
> working for a diploma ; but still interesting ideas)
>
> BTW, you can see that there was already the "dribbblization" problem :
> only proposals made with screenshots had strong reviews.
>
>
> and I'm listed in the initial members of LO design team (but this page has
> been archived) :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team
>
> BTW, Mirek, there is no information about you.
> What is your *real* experience in software design ?
> Have you ever produced a professional software ?
>

No. I'm simply a volunteer here, nothing else. :)
As I said before, I was never appointed as a UX lead, and you're welcome to
partake in all the activities I partake in. You can act as the "UX lead",
if you'd like. :)

>
> For my emails, just look at archive of mailing list and chat logs : I
> worked for color picker, template manager.
> From my email client stats, I wrote 77 mails in design list and 52 in
> ux-advise.
> I agree, I didn't communicated on a regular basis : I'm just a volunteer
> and also have a daily job. But when I realized that current design team
> lacks basic UX skills (while working on color picker), I lost most of my
> motivation and felt it was useless to make proposals.
>
>
>
> And the last emails in this mailing list really broke the last bits of
> motivation :
> - saying officially that design is and will ever be a second class citizen
>

It all depends on the people. If you have the skills to make design a first
class citizen here, go for it. Don't ask for my approval -- you don't need
it.


> - saying officially that TDF will never listen to users
>

That's not exactly true. What was said is that user comments won't be the
primary driving force behind development, to avoid feature creep.


> - saying officially that nothing will change (no roadmap, no mid/long term
> vision, only "bazaar" short term changes) beacuse LO is, as Charles said, a
> libertarian project
>

You can propose a roadmap or a vision. If people like it, they'll follow it.


> - design team has no plans to enhance the design process
>

Come to the IRC chat on Saturday -- we can talk about the design process
then.
However, it seemed to me from your blog posts that you were asking for a
paid group of professional UX designers working outside of the community,
which I don't really think has a chance of happening anytime soon.

>
> So I have nothing more to do for LibreOffice.
> So this is my last message before unsubscribe.
>

I'm sorry you feel that way.

>
> Michel
>

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