RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Elements of Libre Office writer document not accessible to Orca screen reader.

I got quite a chuckle out of that one.  Isn't it ironic that the one factor
you can always always depend upon when it comes to man and machine is dear
old Murphy making an appearance?  I agree with you that LO devs would
probably do a much better job without all the legacy stuff getting in the
way.  The question now is, how do we make it happen?  What would it take to
get the ball rolling in spite of and despite all the symphony stuff?  Ought
to give the effort some sort of snazzy name preferably one that tweaks a
nose or two.  Maybe, the crescendo initiative or something like that.
Perhaps, something more challenging like Libreoffice Show-down (show-downs
are more exciting than symphonies).  It oculd have a tag line like "Join in
the show down to bring a11y up to speed for Libreofice."  Or, "Join your
code to the crescendo."  Yes, yes, yes, that sounded corny, I know.
Somebody fix it.

Alex M
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:15 PM
To: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Elements of Libre Office writer
document not accessible to Orca screen reader.

Hi :)
+1

But from the devs point of view i think they think the Symphony stuff could
just happen tomorrow.  Murphy's Law suggests that it wont happen until just
after they have invested an annoying amount of time and resources into
duplicating the effort but to me that means it's got to be time to push at
TDF and encourage the devs to start working on accessibility stuff now.  


I think 'our' devs would do a better job and the results would be the envy
of other projects.  THe Symphony stuff probably has a lot of java dependancy
and legacy stuff that we would be better off without.  Plus we have more
experience of what NOT to do and wrong directions worth avoiding.  


Regards from
Tom :)  






> ________________________________
> From: Alex Midence <alex.midence@gmail.com>
> To: 'Tom Davies' <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>; 'Dattatray Bhat' 
> <bhatdv@gmail.com>
> Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org; 'sagun baijal' 
> <sagunbaijal@gmail.com>; 'Leena Chourey' <leenagour@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, 30 August 2012, 18:20
> Subject: RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Elements of Libre Office writer
document not accessible to Orca screen reader.
> It sounds to me like the best thing to do will be to just write off the 
> Symphony code and just do it from scratch.  I know it's awfully 
> tempting to just sit back and wait for the issue to finally resolve 
> itself somehow and just reuse code others have written but, that could 
> take years and years and, in the meantime, there are accessibility 
> needs that just don't get addressed for fear of wasting time duplicating
what has already been done.
> So, then, you have twice as much time spent on it.  First, you have the 
> time to actually code the stuff but, on top of that, you have all the 
> time that was wasted waiting around for the whole symphony conundrum to 
> shake itself down and resolve itself a thing which, let's be honest, 
> may never truly happen.  For better of for worse, MS Windows has a user 
> community which is larger than that of Linux or Mac and any other OS 
> Libreoffice runs on.  It may even be bigger than that of all these 
> other OS's combined. That's a pretty big targeted audience that isn't 
> having its needs met.  While SOFTWARE freedom is being considered, user 
> freedom to avail oneself of the software one wants to use is given low
priority.
> Alex M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:24 AM
> To: Alex Midence; Dattatray Bhat
> Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org; sagun baijal; Leena Chourey
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Elements of Libre Office 
> writer document not accessible to Orca screen reader.
>
> Hi :)
> I think the BoD have been working on trying to get the Symphony code 
> that was given to AOO but at that layer of the organisations there 
> seems to be a lot of tension and arguments between the projects.  Down 
> here we sometimes find people working on both projects at roughly the 
> same time or bouncing between the 2.
>
> If the LO devs start working on accessibility issues then their coding 
> is likely to be a rough duplicate of the Symphony coding and end-up 
> being a waste of their time (if we do ever get the Symphony stuff) or 
> end-up with Apache taking us to court or (more likely) some grumbly place
in-between.
> Devs generally get on with stuff that appeals to them and walking into 
> a political & possibly legal minefield is not attractive.
>
> The question is do we;
> 1.  make it more attractive (how?  Are there some "Easy Hacks"?  Could 
> anyone here do bug-triaging and identify some?) 2.  deal with issues 
> and hassle the BoD 3.  make it even less pleasant for the devs to 
> continue dodging the issue errr, hopefully someone has a better option!
>
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
>
>
> > ________________________________
> > From: Alex Midence <alex.midence@gmail.com>
> > To: Dattatray Bhat <bhatdv@gmail.com>
> > Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org; sagun baijal 
> > <sagunbaijal@gmail.com>; Leena Chourey <leenagour@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, 30 August 2012, 14:03
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Elements of Libre Office writer
> document not accessible to Orca screen reader.
> > Wow.  That long?  What, exactly, is the a11y priority for Libreoffice?
> > Meaning, waht all gets looked at, attended to and discussed prior to 
> > accessibility by persons in charge of projects and development goals?
> > We are nearing the end of q3 in 2012.  This stuff was submitted near 
> > the end of q1 in 2011.   Is all this stuf hard to code?  What is the 
> > approximate cost in man hours and such that goes into this?
> >
> > Alex M
> >
> > On 8/30/12, Dattatray Bhat <bhatdv@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The Navigator feature in LibreOffice is not quite convenient for 
> > > visually disabled users who use the Orca screen reader. Suppose I 
> > > want to navigate to previous or next heading. This is what I do. If 
> > > there is an easier way, please let me know.
> > >
> > >     1. Set up Navigator to traverse headings (5-6 keybindings)
> > >        Press F5 to start Navigator
> > >        Press F6 4 times (or Shift+F6 once) to activate Navigator 
> > > window
> > >        Press Tab to go the list box section
> > >        Press Right to expand Headings node
> > >        Press Down to go to first heading label
> > >     2. From current heading, go to next or previous heading (4-5
> > >     key-bindings)
> > >        Press F6 4 times (or Shift+F6 once) to activate Navigator window.
> > >        Press Tab to go to list box section
> > >        Press Up or Down to to go to previous or next heading label
> > >        Press Enter to go to previous or next heading
> > >
> > > If structural navigation feature of Orca worked in LibreOffice, I 
> > > would be able to navigate to previous or next heading with a single 
> > > key-binding. But it doesn't work;  due to some LibreOffice bugs. I 
> > > submitted detailed bug reports (listed below) including screen shots 
> > > to LibreOffice bug tracker in March 2011; but there is no progress so
> far.
> > > 35105     A heading in writer document doesn't expose ROLE_HEADING to 
> > > AT-SPI.
> > > 35107     A hyperlink in writer document doesn't expose correct role 
> > > and URL to AT-SPI.
> > > 35110     A list box in writer document doesn't expose correct role 
> > > to AT-SPI.
> > > 35111     A combo box in writer document doesn't expose 
> > > ROLE_COMBO_BOX to AT-SPI.
> > > 35112    A section in writer document is not visible to AT-SPI.
> > > 35129     A spin button in spreadsheet doesn't expose 
> > > ROLE_SPIN_BUTTON to AT-SPI.
> > > 35652     AT-SPI accessible tree omits objects which are not visible 
> > > on the screen.
> > > 35654     A writer document doesn't implement the Collection 
> > > interface of AT-SPI.
> > >
> > > Can somebody look into these bug reports please?
> > >
> > > Regards.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dattatray Bhat
> > >
> > > --
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